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Started by HorseEasyEast on Sep 4, 2018 10:47:53 PM
Maoism vs Stalinism

Fight honourably

HorseEasyEast - 04 Sep 2018 23:18:02 (#1 of 470)

I'm not trolling with this thread by the way.

I honestly know very little about either of these ideologies.

I only know that Mao needed a peoples' army and that was an essential part of his ideology.

Of Stalin I know only the horror stories that so easily get dismissed as western propaganda these days, but I'm quite convinced that he was an absolutely ruthless tyrant.

Anyhow, if folks that have studied these people/histories want to contribute, that would be very pleasant.

Pentecost - 04 Sep 2018 23:22:05 (#2 of 470)

I honestly know very little about either of these ideologies

Neither do I. If this is about politics more than about systems (which is what I thought it might be about) then I'm not the best person to participate.

HorseEasyEast - 04 Sep 2018 23:25:37 (#3 of 470)

Pent, I put this in the history folder because I thought these ideologies were dead. But I've seen chatter about both, that may suggest not. It's a completely open discussion.

otraynor - 04 Sep 2018 23:36:05 (#4 of 470)

I also know very little, but I know Russians who swear that Stalin was an okay guy, and that it was Khrushchev who was the truly evil one.

Pentecost - 04 Sep 2018 23:36:18 (#5 of 470)

I know, horse, but when I spoke of "systems" I had something a lot more mathematical in mind than fighting over some "isms".

Hilary - 04 Sep 2018 23:46:09 (#6 of 470)

Number of deaths in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin

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Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to Joseph Stalin vary widely. Record-keeping of the executions of political prisoners and ethnic minorities are regarded as neither reliable nor complete.[1] Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 3 million[2][3][4] to nearly 9 million.[5][6] Some claim the death toll could be 20 to 30 million.[7][8][9]

Before the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union, researchers who attempted to count the number of people killed during the period of Stalin produced estimates ranging from 2 to 60 million.[10] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives also became available, containing official records of 799,455 executions (1921–1953),[11] around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulag and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement – with a total of about 2.9 million officially recorded victims in these categories.[12]

People's Republic of China

The Chinese Communist Party came to power in China in 1949, when Chinese communist revolution ended a long and bloody civil war between communists and nationalists. There is a general consensus among historians that after Mao Zedong seized power, his policies and political purges caused directly or indirectly the deaths of tens of millions of people.[124][125][126] In light of additional evidence, Rummel increased Mao's democide toll to 77 million[127][ao] Based on the Soviets' experience, Mao considered violence necessary to achieve an ideal society derived from Marxism and planned and executed violence on a grand scale.[128][129]

Hilary - 04 Sep 2018 23:47:58 (#7 of 470)

So it seems that Maoism killed rather more human beings than Stalinism did. In this connection it is interesting that "Mao Zedong famously declared that Stalin was 70% good, 30% bad."

otraynor - 04 Sep 2018 23:48:12 (#8 of 470)

It sounds as though Mao's figures count his agricultural deaths, but Stalin's don't.

rgtstoppedcounting - 04 Sep 2018 23:48:29 (#9 of 470)

Looks like Mao's got it by a mile by the numbers then.

But mano a mano, who would have been strutting the ring?

xbod72 - 04 Sep 2018 23:50:35 (#10 of 470)

Mao wins on pedometer steps.

otraynor - 04 Sep 2018 23:53:15 (#11 of 470)

The top winner of the office pedometer challenge has to be Ho Chi Minh, though.

HorseEasyEast - 04 Sep 2018 23:56:41 (#12 of 470)

What is interesting, is that all deaths are attributed to the regime, but you don't see all deaths being attributed to the regime under western capitalism. For example, the Irish famine death toll is not attributed to the british empire.

rgtstoppedcounting - 04 Sep 2018 23:57:19 (#13 of 470)

Who is it attributed to?

HorseEasyEast - 04 Sep 2018 23:58:24 (#14 of 470)

No regime, that's for sure, seems to just get written down as "one of those things that happened"

rgtstoppedcounting - 05 Sep 2018 00:00:22 (#15 of 470)

Where exactly is it written down thusly, pray tell?

otraynor - 05 Sep 2018 00:00:22 (#16 of 470)

Very good point, Horse.

The famines under both Mao and Stalin seem often to be attributed to malice rather than misguided policies, or just discounted.

Pentecost - 05 Sep 2018 00:04:17 (#17 of 470)

Yes, the deaths under any regime need to be separated at least into deaths during the regime and deaths ordered by the regime.

rgtstoppedcounting - 05 Sep 2018 00:05:58 (#18 of 470)

That gets a bit tricky though. For example, is having food turned back at armed perimeter cordons actually ordering deaths?

Pentecost - 05 Sep 2018 00:07:01 (#19 of 470)

Dunno. I accept it's tricky.

rgtstoppedcounting - 05 Sep 2018 00:10:08 (#20 of 470)

Or ordering entire villages onto the road at gunpoint, without food or winter clothing?

Cheaper than bullets.

They both did quite a lot of that.

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