No smilies, no avatars, no flashing gifs. Just discuss the issues of the day, from last night's telly via football to science or philosophy.
Started by TinyMcOtter on Dec 17, 2018 12:26:53 AM
Parallels with the 1930s? How big a threat is the extreme right wing in Europe (and elsewhere)?

There's a lot of it about, but are parallels with the 1930s really applicable?

I heard Chomsky being relatively positive about it all, arguing (I think) along the lines that Trump doesn't have a version of the Hitler Youth or Gestapo, for example and that we have come back from this kind of thing before. But in Europe we seem to have issues in Belgium, Sweden, Hungary, Italy, France, Poland. Then, recently, there's Brasil.

Are far right policies are being implemented slowly, through back door, rather than on the streets, like the 1930?

Previous
|
Next
|
Top
|
Bottom
popstar7 - 17 Dec 2018 00:40:00 (#1 of 71)

I think there's a fair to good chance that Trump will be coughed up like a hairball by the American system. The founding fathers were, for all their faults, hyper-aware of the threat of tyranny and they planned for it.

I don't see that in Europe. It's not hard to see France, Spain or Italy turning to the far right. Germany less so, but I'm not even sure about that anymore.

TinyMcOtter - 17 Dec 2018 01:19:24 (#2 of 71)

I tend to agree with all of that.

In fact, I (touch wood) see Trump as already being gradually eased out in an unholy compromise - Republicans because it's bad for business and their re-election chances, Democracts because... actually, Trump staying in place might be better, but who wants to take that chance?

RE: Europe, I also see a huge opposition to the far right. And the hope is that people have learned something from the 1930s. Interestingly, the UK has always been largely resistant to mass fascist movements. The establishment have been quite clever at absorbing that threat - see also Thatcher in 1979. Although, had WW2 not happened, might Mosley have got further?

AdrianNTierney - 17 Dec 2018 02:54:10 (#3 of 71)

Mosley was a poor and shadowy imitation of his "hero". Without the threat of a war, Hitler was dead in the water. Hence, Mosley would have been even 'deader'.

moto748 - 17 Dec 2018 03:00:30 (#4 of 71)

To the British, he'll always be Roderick Spode.

HerrWalrus - 17 Dec 2018 06:14:19 (#5 of 71)

Civil War starts in the UK in 2019. At that point all bets are off.

Arjuna - 17 Dec 2018 06:46:22 (#6 of 71)

I heard Chomsky being relatively positive about it all, arguing (I think) along the lines that Trump doesn't have a version of the Hitler Youth or Gestapo

both of those were established after Hitler came to power, in the 1930s the Nazis had millions of members of the SA even before they had almost won an election, paramilitary groups were essential to the fascist parties of the 1930s, it meant that Hitler could turn his position of being chancellor without a majority in the Reichstag into a dictatorship, it meant that Mussolini could march on Rome.

col2001 - 17 Dec 2018 06:59:25 (#7 of 71)

Parallels?

I'd say look at those in the traditional elites who thought they could manage Hitler. We have equivalents today. They have similar ideas and seek to exploit the masses with bollox nativism and othering.

Then, consider the absence of a real or perceived Communist 'threat'. I don't think there is a need for street-politics on a large scale: small-scale stuff, amplified by a compliant media is enough.

thisonehasalittlehat - 17 Dec 2018 08:45:21 (#8 of 71)

Thing is someone like trump doesn't appear interested in global power. He always interested in being a celebrity and sees president as the no 1 celebrity. Think the days of grand plans have gone; it's all ad hoc.

browserbutton - 17 Dec 2018 08:52:09 (#9 of 71)

Imagine if Hitler had had Twitter.

Agaliarept - 17 Dec 2018 09:00:04 (#10 of 71)

I think there's a fair to good chance that Trump will be coughed up like a hairball by the American system. The founding fathers were, for all their faults, hyper-aware of the threat of tyranny and they planned for it.

One of the few things the US has right about government.

col2001 - 17 Dec 2018 12:26:32 (#11 of 71)

Thing is someone like trump doesn't appear interested in global power... Think the days of grand plans have gone; it's all ad hoc.

Yes, and there are those who think they can manage him to deliver what they want. Koch brothers and friends.

TinyMcOtter - 17 Dec 2018 12:29:05 (#12 of 71)

Fightback in Hungary?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/17/hung
ary-opposition-mps-attack-viktor-orban-slave-law-during-state-tv-protest

Arjuna - 17 Dec 2018 12:35:02 (#13 of 71)

The human rights group the Hungarian Helsinki Committee said the legislation was “a serious threat to the rule of law in Hungary and runs counter to values Hungary signed up to when it joined the European Union”.



Hungary is a bit scary. The EU has requirements that countries have to be liberal democracies when entering the union but can it do anything when liberties are rolled back?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/hung
ary-passes-slave-law-prompting-fury-among-opposition-mps

TinyMcOtter - 17 Dec 2018 13:02:41 (#14 of 71)

It's supposed to be able to do something, but it rarely gives a shit. The EU is all about neoliberalism and doesn't give a fuck about democracy.

And yes, I voted Remain.

Lento_ - 17 Dec 2018 14:44:58 (#15 of 71)

I think there's a fair to good chance that Trump will be coughed up like a hairball by the American system.



So far there hasn't been much sign of it. We're half way through his term, and the Republicans in Congress haven't yet shown any signs of trying to reign him in. Even if Mueller came out and said that there was proof Trump had broken the law, Trump's base would still back him, and I bet the Republicans in the Senate would block impeachment. I wouldn't be at all surprised now to see him complete the term.

The interesting thing will be what happens if he tries to run again.

Rendered - 17 Dec 2018 14:46:13 (#16 of 71)

It's probably best he's voted out rather than impeached.

machiavelli - 17 Dec 2018 14:48:39 (#17 of 71)

It's probably best he's voted out rather than impeached.

Yes. Better his base gets sick of him than a "stab in the back" legend takes hold. I read something about manufacturing jobs he promised to protect disappearing so disillusionment may not be far off.

popstar7 - 17 Dec 2018 14:54:10 (#18 of 71)

That's what I mean by being coughed up by the system. He's not going to suspend elections, declare martial law or jail his opponents. Or I'm 90-something % sure he's not going to. And if he tried to I think he would be removed quickly.

YorenInTheNorth - 17 Dec 2018 18:26:57 (#19 of 71)

There are some disturbing trends in Eastern Europe, Italy and France but I'd rate the threat of the far right as low. Although if we hit another recession things could get worse fast.

TRaney - 17 Dec 2018 20:30:02 (#20 of 71)

It’s not entirely clear (to me at least) what is meant by far right policies. The implication seems to be fascism. But what parts of it?

Racial policies seem to have parallels. But the Nazis had an indigenous scapegoat rather than immigrants, and indeed were more concerned about emigrants and reuniting the German volk.

Authoritarianism, suspension of democracy, suppression of dissent, and secret police haven’t historically been limited to the far right. I think they belong in a broader category of siege mentality which may have parallels.

Economically I’m not sure the comparison stands. I’d associate the right wing now with a low tax, small state regime. I don’t think that is similar to the nazi’s all-pervasive state.

Previous
|
Next
|
Top
|
Bottom
Check Subscriptions
|
Home » History