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Started by DarthBane on Apr 12, 2021 6:15:19 PM
Would Russia have been better off had the Whites won the Civil War of 1917-1922?

Considering what the Bolsheviks had done to Russia in the following decades, it’s not hard to imagine. However, would Russia have become a Constitutional Monarchy or a Republic with an elected Duma, or would it have become a Fascistic military state run by Generals, something along the lines of Admiral Horthy in Hungary after the 100 days of the Communist regime of Bela Kun? In either event, Russia may have been spared the gulag meat grinder the country experienced under Stalin.

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DarthBane - 12 Apr 2021 18:24:51 (#1 of 138)

Many of the Whites were Liberal or Democratic Social Revolutionaries, however some favoured a return to the Monarchy. Some Whites blamed the Jews for the Russian Revolution, and slaughtered them en masse. Both the Reds and Whites spread terror.

mingmong - 12 Apr 2021 18:35:50 (#2 of 138)

Probably like comparing Yeltsin with Putin. The question is 'beneficial to whom?'

The generations in my family are spread out, so despite being a shade south of 50 myself, my grandad actually fought in WW1 and served in the RAF when it was still the RFC. It was in that capacity that he was sent by the British government after the war to assist/gather intelligence on the Whites in the civil war. He came home with the opinion that the Whites were a contemptible bunch of useless, pissed-up, self-serving scumbags; and the Russia would be more effectively governed by the Reds

DarthBane - 12 Apr 2021 18:39:57 (#3 of 138)

Given the horrible atrocities they committed against the Russian people during the Civil War, were they really democratic as some have suggested? Of course, the Bolsheviks were no angels either in that regard. They may very well have been as useless and corrupt like you say.

Arjuna - 12 Apr 2021 18:41:48 (#4 of 138)

No, they were even crazier than the reds. Most Russians knew it too, the red army suffered hugely from desertions but not when the whiites threatened victory.

HouseOfLametta - 12 Apr 2021 18:44:20 (#5 of 138)

Were they really so desperate for breakdown cover?

mingmong - 12 Apr 2021 18:48:58 (#6 of 138)

thank you Lazlo, Edited.

DarthBane - 12 Apr 2021 18:49:10 (#7 of 138)

Trotsky once said that had the Whites won, the world would have been using a Russian word for Fascism, instead of an Italian one.. A White victory may have not lead to an elected Duma, even if some were fighting for that.

brooklyn - 12 Apr 2021 18:49:36 (#8 of 138)

you might as well ask whether the Chinese would have been better off had Chiang won.

At least it seems that the Vietnamese are better off that Ho won.

TheValkyrie - 12 Apr 2021 18:50:35 (#9 of 138)

The White Generals were a gaggle of warlords with little or no coherent position on anything. I couldn't see them forming a coherent or stable regime. If they had snuffed out the Bolsheviks I guess Russia would have descended into China style warlordism with outlying areas being annexed by her neighbours.

There only chance was to abandon their defunct politics and sign on with the SR but that meant abandoning everything they stood for. IIRC they instead destroyed the only functional non-Bolshevik regime (which lacked the mititary power to make a fight of it with the Reds or Whites).

DarthBane - 12 Apr 2021 18:51:57 (#10 of 138)

A Kuomintang victory may have lead to eventual Democratization in China like what you saw in Taiwan in the 80’s perhaps, even if China went through decades of one party rule under the KMT.

DarthBane - 12 Apr 2021 19:12:51 (#11 of 138)

Another thing to consider....would Hitler have attacked a White Russia? He was largely motivated to wiping out what he callled “Jewish Bolshevism”. Also, would Hitler have been able to establish Nazi Germany without preying on the fears of a Communist akeover like what happened in Russia?

TheValkyrie - 12 Apr 2021 19:25:03 (#12 of 138)

Fair point on the red scare but Hitler would still have attacked Russia. That war was as much traditional imperialism/great power politics/WW 1: Rematch as it was a race/ideological war.

DarthBane - 12 Apr 2021 19:35:05 (#13 of 138)

Yes, I guess Hitler still needed his precious Lebensraum, and he still would have regarded the Russians as inferior Slavs. Of course, if he liked a White Russia’s politics, might he have tried to work with them as an ally?

Tadagee - 12 Apr 2021 19:36:21 (#14 of 138)

Like he did with Stalin?

TheValkyrie - 12 Apr 2021 19:37:03 (#15 of 138)

Possibly but in the end his goals would have clashed with the goals of any Russian regime.

DarthBane - 12 Apr 2021 19:37:09 (#16 of 138)

Again, Stalin was a Bolshevik...

browserbutton - 12 Apr 2021 19:37:40 (#17 of 138)

Still, Russia has ended up with Putin so everything worked out splendidly.

Tadagee - 12 Apr 2021 19:37:58 (#18 of 138)

Again, Stalin was a Bolshevik.

Bloody Hell! Was he really?

DarthBane - 12 Apr 2021 19:38:17 (#19 of 138)

It could be that Russia and Germany were bound to slug it out regardless of who was running the country.

Tadagee - 12 Apr 2021 19:38:37 (#20 of 138)

Yup.

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