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Started by barkis on Mar 13, 2022 7:47:29 PM
Apologies for the past: up or down?

Specifically

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/mar/13/calls-scotland-pardon-witch-hunt-victims-gather-pace

I think such movements are wrong and impose modern ideas on the past in an unjustified way.

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Lawlsie - 13 Mar 2022 19:53:41 (#1 of 38)

I think such movements are wrong and impose modern ideas on the past in an unjustified way

Agree

CarlosFandango - 13 Mar 2022 19:58:48 (#2 of 38)

I think such movements are often wrong and may impose modern ideas on the past in an unjustified way, and are often a toe-curling opportunity for gratuitous virtue-signalling.

darkhorse - 13 Mar 2022 20:01:00 (#3 of 38)

impose modern ideas

Hmmm...so in the context of the time it was perfectly reasonable to burn the "witches"?

I think a nice speech, a formal pardon, we ruminate on the past a bit. Can't do any harm.

darkhorse - 13 Mar 2022 20:02:31 (#4 of 38)

"Prosecutions for witchcraft may seem far removed from our lives now, but we believe this offers an opportunity to better understand issues that still affect us today,” she said. “In the UK stereotypical expectations about how men and woman should act persist, we still see outspoken women viewed and treated harshly and women are still expected to mitigate their behaviour to protect themselves from male violence. Globally people are persecuted for witchcraft and women often disproportionately suffer the consequences of religious extremism.”

Stellata - 13 Mar 2022 20:02:53 (#5 of 38)

what darkhorse said.

barkis - 13 Mar 2022 20:04:13 (#6 of 38)

#3

In the context of the time I& #39;m not sure they& #39;d have argued it was "perfectly reasonable". That& #39;s application of a modern view.

breakfast - 13 Mar 2022 20:04:45 (#7 of 38)

Not burning witches is political correctness gone mad!

LomaxFairchild - 13 Mar 2022 20:06:15 (#8 of 38)

Much like slavery, I'm sure there was a period where a lot of people know it was wrong but others carried on doing it anyway.

Mazzarin - 13 Mar 2022 20:06:24 (#9 of 38)

I have no problem with applying modern standards to the past but it's cheap gesture politics too.

It costs nothing to apologise for this.

Where are the apologies for things with an ongoing legacy?

"I apologise for X". Well what about compensation, investment or structural reforms to undo the legacy of X?

I'm thinking of old school slavery for example.

Arjuna - 13 Mar 2022 20:06:33 (#10 of 38)

Kelly points to a swell of grassroots groups researching local prosecutions. “The scale of persecution was incredible,” she said, with Scotland carrying out five times the European average of executions per capita. She added: “And it’s not really talked about in local communities"



Well it was four hundred years ago

barkis - 13 Mar 2022 20:06:57 (#11 of 38)

#4

And that sort of bollocks is the sort of thing that results. Poliiticians using history that they've probably skimmed the surface of if that to make modern points.

darkhorse - 13 Mar 2022 20:07:56 (#12 of 38)

they'd have argued it was "perfectly reasonable".

Fair point, I suppose they would have argued she is Satan's wh*re and must be sent to hell, otherwise she will poison the milk. Best be on the safe side.

barkis - 13 Mar 2022 20:08:15 (#13 of 38)

#10

Why should it be talked about in local communities? It happened in the 17th/18th centuries.

Mazzarin - 13 Mar 2022 20:08:22 (#14 of 38)

#11

By a Government with some pretty ropey attitudes to women right now.

Arjuna - 13 Mar 2022 20:14:03 (#15 of 38)

Kelly points to a swell of grassroots groups researching local prosecutions. “The scale of persecution was incredible,” she said, with Scotland carrying out five times the European average of executions per capita"

I find these figures suspect. Witch burning was most common in Germany.

mingmong - 13 Mar 2022 20:24:21 (#16 of 38)

The witch persecutions were not directed at any specific group, but tended to target marginalised individuals within communities, many of whom were female and poor.

In the case of the witch persecutions (as I understand it) there was a super-structural impetus (the publication of Malleus Malleficium etc.) and a social, economic and legal framework that tended to amplify the whole rotten business, but the basic driving force was the instinct of the bully to persecute weaker and less popular individuals.

In short, these things happen because human beings can sometimes behave like utter cunts. I'm not sure any amount of apologising is ever going to change that, though (one would like to think) a bit of honest reflection and empathy might in some cases. Unfortunately, however, the kinds of people who go in for these sorts of behaviours don't tend to be the ones who go in for reflection and empathy

champagnerocker - 13 Mar 2022 20:57:33 (#17 of 38)

The last twenty minutes of The Devils is certainly a very hard watch.

Delighted_User - 13 Mar 2022 22:13:12 (#18 of 38)

On a purely pedantic point, anglophone countries didn't burn witches. They hanged them. I appreciate that this is not a massive improvement, but the mistake is as annoying as the confusion between the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth.

https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/learn/histories/eight-witchcraft-myths/

machiavelli - 13 Mar 2022 22:40:00 (#19 of 38)

"Prosecutions for witchcraft may seem far removed from our lives now,

That's because we don't prosecute people for witchcraft anymore.

CarlosFandango - 13 Mar 2022 22:43:55 (#20 of 38)

the mistake is as annoying as the confusion between the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth.

Oh, so not in the least bit annoying then. Confusion over various bits of archaic and irrelevant made-up cobblers can be safely ignored, I find.

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