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Started by freedutchman on Apr 3, 2017 8:41:03 AM
Independent Kurdistan?

Barzani calls for UN ‘understanding’ on Kurdish independence referendum http://www.rudaw.net/mobile/english/kurdistan/3003
20174#sthash.6TQqdC7s.dpuf


How will the governments of Iraq, Iran, Turkey etc. react to an independent Kurdistan?

;-)

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freedutchman - 03 Apr 2017 08:42:56 (#1 of 133)

KRG PM: Talk of Iraqi Kurdish independence red line for Iran, but not Turkey

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/12/krg-iraq-kurdistan-region-nechirvan-barzani-iran-turkey.html

Iraqi Kurds have always dreamed of independence. Now they are moving to transform that dream into reality.

;-)

dottie30 - 03 Apr 2017 11:52:40 (#2 of 133)

Turkey will be thrilled with an independent Iraqi Kurdistan. They have made some mumblings about it being not the right time; but in truth; Turkey wants to have a friendly nation on its southern border. Which is exactly what Barzani is. Turkey already treats Barzani as a head of state anyway.

They want Barzani to have full rights to the oil fields of Iraqi Kurdistan because they know that he'll want to sell to Europe - which means; piping it through Turkey.

And Turkish companies are already hugely influential in the Kurdish region of Northern Iraq. That would only continue - as would the Turkish training of the Peshmerga.

Also, it would heavily damage the PKK's emotional pull.

Iran would hate it. Because it would be seriously problematic to a mainly shia Iraq.

freedutchman - 03 Apr 2017 12:10:48 (#3 of 133)

So if Barzani plays his cards well, he will eventually have an independent Kurdistan.

But Iran won't like it, so I wouldn't be surprised if Saudi Arabia will finance it all.

;-)

dottie30 - 03 Apr 2017 12:13:43 (#4 of 133)

I doubt Saudi will think much of his racist insistence that sunni Arabs won't be part of an independent Kurdistan (ie no Arabs in my territory thank you very much).

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/12/krg-iraq-kurdistan-region-nechirvan-barzani-iran-turkey.html

Al-Monitor:  Where do the Sunni Arabs fall in the mix?

Barzani:  The Sunni community has to decide for themselves what they want, whether it’s regional autonomy or some other formula. Once they achieve clarity, things will fall into place. The problem for everyone though is that the Sunnis don’t seem to know what they want. That is the perception.

Al-Monitor:  But they won’t be part of your independent Kurdish state?

Barzani:  No.

freedutchman - 03 Apr 2017 12:31:26 (#5 of 133)

So there seems to be three major players in that region then: Turkey, Iran & Saudi Arabia.

Interesting times ahead of us as Russia, the US & Israel also play their parts.

;-)

MestangloMan - 17 Sep 2017 18:06:34 (#6 of 133)

Iraqi Vice President:

We will not allow the possibility of a second Israel.

This was said after Bibi encouraged the creation of a Kurdish State.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/2
35633




Wild Times USA and our often Troubled Woild at large-ski. FD, others, great Sunday and work week at yuz.

MestangloMan - 17 Sep 2017 18:25:40 (#7 of 133)

The leaders of autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan must "call off the (September 25) referendum that is contrary to the constitution and does not serve the general interests of the Iraqi people, not even the particular interests of the Kurds", said Vice President Nuri al-Maliki.

"We will not allow the creation of a second Israel in the north of Iraq," Maliki, a Shiite former prime minister, said at a meeting with US ambassador Douglas Silliman, in a statement released by the vice president's office.

A country set up on a religious or ethnic base other than Islam, like the Jewish state established in 1948, would not be acceptable, (Current VP, former Iraqi PM)Maliki said.

Arutz Sheva. Possibly the only issue that unites the fractious area of the world known as MENA. I say Possibly with a capital P.

freedutchman - 18 Sep 2017 12:49:53 (#8 of 133)

I am afraid that there will only be an independent Kurdistan if the US decides to support that new nation militarily just like the US has been supporting Israel from the beginning.

So as long as Turkey is a member of NATO and as long as the Shiate dominated government in Baghdad opposes the idea, the Kurds will be denied their own sovereign State.

Too bad, so sad.

;-)

MestangloMan - 18 Sep 2017 13:02:24 (#9 of 133)

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/09/iraq-top-court-rules-suspend-kurdish-referendum-170918102729593.html

Iraqi Supreme Court rules to suspend Kurdish referendum. Of course, true independence would easily defy such things, but this isn't the first time Barzani has played with this issue.

I am afraid that there will only be an independent Kurdistan if the US decides to support that new nation militarily just like the US has been supporting Israel from the beginning.

Actually, FD, some in the States would argue that the US didn't support Israel militarily until into the Six Day War in 67 or just afterwards, which led to one Sirhan Sirhan going a bit daft. Definitely the political support was there with one Harry Truman in 47, 48. But your point is well taken. Many US pols in both parties give the Kurds all kinds of high fives until they want to be free of outside rule.

Then they go quiet as church mice and play to the worst part of their angels, if you will. What is interesting to me is that the Kurds are predominantly Muslim. It's the nationalist aspect that seems to drive the region into a frenzy over this issue. Not sure I make sense of that aspect at this stage other than there are millions of Kurds in the overall area.

So as long as Turkey is a member of NATO and as long as the Shiate dominated government in Baghdad opposes the idea, the Kurds will be denied their own sovereign State.

Probably a veddy reasonable point, but Barzani can still play the Ben Gurion card until the real Ben Gurion steps up to the plate, whoever that might be. He is quite a politician in his own right. A survivor's survivor.

MestangloMan - 18 Sep 2017 13:06:14 (#10 of 133)

And my conspiracy theory relative to the Kurds, going back to the 90s with Saddam prior to the invasion is that lots of people love the Kurds when they are a foil for a "bad bunch" of Arabs:

Saddam in the 90s, Al Qaeda, the Islamic State.



But when they want to be free of their overlords, the World, including high level pols in the UN, isn't so thrilled with them. Definitely they realize it, but many resign themselves to that fate, from what I can tell 26 years later.

Racism against the Kurds?



Without a flipping doubt in my head. But, alas, the world is what it bloody well is.

MestangloMan - 18 Sep 2017 15:06:05 (#11 of 133)

You might get a giggle out of this, FD. From an Arab cartoonist pov: The Referendum for Kurdish Independence.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Cartoons.aspx?id=2385



Ah, that wascally sense of humor some folks in the M.E. maintain. Heh.

HerrWalrus - 18 Sep 2017 15:18:43 (#12 of 133)

The Kurdish people of northern Iraq are used to their Arab neighbours coming along and doing a bit of genocide and/or ethnic cleansing. Saddam did it a couple of times, and more recently Isis (helped by some Sunni helpers) did the same. All very well saying it's dangerous to seek independence. But in this case the Kurds can turn around and say it's been more dangerous leaving control with their Arab neighbours.

MestangloMan - 18 Sep 2017 16:29:25 (#13 of 133)

OK, FD, I will borrow this from the Turkish thread in order to make a point:

Turkish sources claim that 200,000 Kurdish Jews will help settle the new Kurdish State. Surely this point isn't being used to create fears or phobias of some sort.

Oh, NO. Ha.

http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.812314

The place where there are hundreds of thousands of Jews in MENA would be in Israel, OK maybe Russia and the neighboring states/territories depending on what one means by that. Definitely Europe and the US. Beyond that this issue will continue to stir up some demons and fears, although, from what I can tell, Barzani seems to be part-revolutionary nationalist and part-practical as all hell survivor(I might even add the Turkish Prez to that list).

Interesting points on this April-2017 based thread. Prophecies in older texts and all, but something tells me one day the World won't be able to ignore this moe foe of an issue. Carry on.

MestangloMan - 18 Sep 2017 17:03:31 (#14 of 133)

Unsurprisingly Press TV is reporting that Mr. Abadi is demanding they stop this Kurdish independence mess pronto. Even some heavies in the US and UK are saying they don't like seeing this stuff.

Of course, the readership says that USUK is behind Barzani's efforts. Add, of course, the "Zionists".

Ah, the more things change and all. And, truly, carry on. FD, ta for the thread. Will keep an eye on it.

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/09/18/535587/Ir
aq-PM-demands-suspension-of-Kurdish-independence-referendum


President of the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) Massoud Barzani told a rally for secession in the northern city of Dohuk that the Iraqi Kurdistan did "not take legitimacy from anyone.”



The Iraqi parliament voted on September 13 to reject the plebiscite, requiring the prime minister and the central government in Baghdad to “take all steps to protect the unity of Iraq and open a serious dialogue” with Kurdish leaders. The decision prompted a walkout by Kurdish lawmakers.

mrjingles - 19 Sep 2017 11:39:07 (#15 of 133)

It would be a much simpler question if the Kurds would choose ONE country they believe should grant them independence.

Or they could choose the palestinian way and carry out terrorism. That way everyone would take notice.

freedutchman - 19 Sep 2017 11:42:47 (#16 of 133)

Turkish tanks drill on Iraqi border week before Kurdish vote

ANKARA/BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Turkish tanks carried out drills at the Iraqi border on Monday, the army said, a week before a referendum across that frontier on Kurdish independence that Ankara has called a threat to its national security.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-kurds-turkey/turkish-tanks-drill-on-iraqi-border-week-before-kurdish-vote-idUSKCN1BT0WA

;-)

MestangloMan - 20 Sep 2017 14:55:23 (#17 of 133)

Erdogan threatens autonomous Kurdish region in Iraq with sanctions if they go ahead with the referendum, plus says it could lead to fresh outbreaks of military confrontations. Plus I remember that the Kurds in Syria put out a referendum for autonomy many, many months ago. It was one of the few things which brought Assad, the Saudis, Qataris, Turks, and Iranians into some semblance of agreement. Apparently it still is because Syria remains a mindfork.

Let us not con ourselves, what say!

Anyway, the Kurds in Iraq are getting all kinds of threats and warnings, including from the USA and UK. So far they have not blinked. Prophecies in much older texts than this old school forum and places like Zuckerbergville.

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/09/20/535800/Tu
rkey-Erdogan-Iraqi-Kurdistan-referendum-sanctions

MestangloMan - 20 Sep 2017 19:15:13 (#18 of 133)

This reminds me of the Canadian situation with Quebec during the time of Chretien, only on Steroids.

:^)



Barzani says that calling off the referendum at this stage is "impossible".



Gambling remains in Oklahoma, Monte Carlo, and such places, not on this board.

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/09/20/535844/Ir
aq-Sulaymaniyah-Kurdistan-Massoud-Barzani-Fuad-Masum


Masum, himself a Kurd, has been meeting with Kurdish officials in an attempt to dissolve the vote.

According to his office, the Iraqi president has invited all leaders to call off the referendum and concentrate their efforts on defeating the Daesh terrorist group instead.



Press TV. I thought IS was yesterday's snooze.

MestangloMan - 21 Sep 2017 12:38:05 (#19 of 133)

A very intriguing perspective. From a Saudi paper. The Saudis are trying to convince Barzani to back down, mind you without going into hysterics. This is from a Palestinian contributor who looks at the pros and cons and says Kurds should have their state. I can remember during Desert Storm an Israeli Arab, who defiantly called himself Palestinian, really ripping into the Kurds. There was no love for any of their aspirations from this gentlemen at the time, early 90s.

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1164741

My change of stance on Kurdish self-determination occurred about 15 years ago as something of an epiphany. Discussing Iraq prior to the 2003 invasion with a cousin whose politics I respected, one of the points I raised in opposition to the looming war was the prospect of the country’s breakup due to a likely Kurdish push for independence. 



“How can you, as a Palestinian who seeks self-determination for your own people, deny that same right and aspiration to the Kurds?” my cousin asked. I had no valid answer to this simple question. I was ashamed by my hypocrisy, all the more so because my stance was not a product of independent thought, but of societal conditioning among Middle Easterners to oppose Kurdish self-determination in a knee-jerk fashion.

WillodeanKnuth - 21 Sep 2017 12:40:53 (#20 of 133)

Ah, this is the current monglers rumination thread is it? Perhaps the mods could be prevailed upon to put a note in the header so nobody stumbles in here unawares.

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