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Started by mingmong on Oct 14, 2017 12:17:53 AM
Iran as the Big Baddie

I just don't see it myself.

In a part of the world that includes the likes of Hamas, ISIS (not so much now, thnk god), Saudi Arabia and all the other utterly vile gulf plutocracies

Iran is far from perfect, its nuclear ambitions are open to suspicion and its mullah theocracy is inherantly regressive. But it does have something resembling democracy going on, with a relatively educated and potentially independent-minded electorate. Is there not more cause for hope in this part of the middle east than dispair?

upgoerfive - 14 Oct 2017 00:34:02 (#1 of 129)

The U.S. is never going to forgive them for overthrowing the Shah.

It was downright uppity of them.

Same reason Cuba is still on the shit-list.

mingmong - 14 Oct 2017 00:38:09 (#2 of 129)

Israel also has good reason for feeling threatening, given some of the noises made by the Ayatollas over the years, and the existance of groups like Hezbollah etc.

But this whole Iran as the Arch thing seems a little dated. Is there not more of an opportunity here these days than a threat?

misosoup100 - 14 Oct 2017 00:46:35 (#3 of 129)

Iran is way ahead of the other countries in that region in terms of education and gender equality.

SirHenryPercy - 14 Oct 2017 00:47:33 (#4 of 129)

Opportunity? what for?

Iran is opposed to Western interests in the region.

That isn't going to change anytime soon. It doesn't matter if she is a democracy or a dictatorship, right-wing or left-wing.

upgoerfive - 14 Oct 2017 00:48:54 (#5 of 129)

Iran is opposed to Western interests in the region.

How very dare they!

Why, they'll be talking about selling oil in currencies other than the US$ next.

mingmong - 14 Oct 2017 00:54:07 (#6 of 129)

Iran is opposed to Western interests in the region.

Fair enough, why shouldn't they be. But that opposition seems more rational and specific than the kind of the stuff the likes of Hamas come up with (KILL ALL JOOZ!!1!) and a little more progressive than the naked feudal power-play of the likes of Saudi Arabia

mingmong - 14 Oct 2017 00:57:05 (#7 of 129)

Problem is of course the sectarian shite, and I wouldn't know where to start with all that. Essentially, its none of our business; and any western attempts to divide and rule on that basis will only make things worse. This much should be obvious by now.

upgoerfive - 14 Oct 2017 01:03:37 (#8 of 129)

The viewpoint of many Iranians is that the Iran-Iraq war was sponsored by the U. S.

Right or wrong, that's an obstacle which requires a great deal of good-faith diplomacy to overcome. Not cheap hard-man posturing by leaders.

It's diplomacy - compromise is not weakness, it's what makes stuff work.

SirHenryPercy - 14 Oct 2017 01:43:35 (#9 of 129)

Guys, cool it.

I wasn't saying Iran opposing the West was a bad thing or that they are the baddies.

It's just a geo-political fact and why we will remain at odds.

They are of course as cuntish as ourselves and our allies and happy to kill civillians, stir up ethnic trouble and play the same games that we do.

Shadrack22 - 14 Oct 2017 01:52:31 (#10 of 129)

I entirely agree, Ming. There was a great BBC4 series a few years ago about the history of relations between Iran and the west, specifically the US and the UK. I came away with the sense that Iran had been receptive to a better relationship with the west over the years, but that we hadn’t made the most of opportunities to work with and support reformist elements (the tension between orthodoxy and more liberal elements is an ongoing feature).

Flashpoints include the west’s overthrow of the Mosadeggh government in 1953, the fall out from the overthrow of the Shah and (as ever) the extent to which support for Israel skews relationships with other governments in the region.

upgoerfive - 14 Oct 2017 02:26:03 (#11 of 129)

Also, the Iranian contempt for the Petrodollar system.

browserbutton - 14 Oct 2017 04:58:03 (#12 of 129)

Trump is just going around the world looking for 'others' to pick fights with. He probably has a globe in the oval office, that he whizzes with his little fighty hands.

darkhorse - 14 Oct 2017 07:44:14 (#13 of 129)

It has little to do with morality. It’s to do with competing interests. I wouldn’t like to live under the Iranian regime. Many of the things they do as a regional player are pretty undesirable.

But is Iran the main player causing a humanitarian crisis in Yemen? Did they invade Iraq to topple the regime, instituting mass chaos and instability which has taken the lives of countless people?

The US can’t lecture them about “stability” and violence.

You could compare it to US visceral hatred for Nicaragua in the 80s while they were happy to sponsor even more appalling right wing regimes.

Unfortunately there are people who lap this Nationalist shit up and love stoking conflict.

tasselhoff - 14 Oct 2017 08:11:50 (#14 of 129)

I think Trump just became best buds with the Saudis when he visited them. So he's swallowing their horseshit about Iran.

browserbutton - 14 Oct 2017 08:15:12 (#15 of 129)

Ah yes, I remember, it was the Saudis who let him play with the globe.

bossab2 - 14 Oct 2017 08:33:08 (#16 of 129)

The "axis of evil" countries could form some kind of commonwealth.

col2001 - 14 Oct 2017 09:04:25 (#17 of 129)

It worries me that seriously-simplistic rhetoric is so successful in democracies.

(Fake democracy, I call it.)

It's nothing new, but I suggest it used to be largely deployed in election campaigning. Then, rhetoric like this might continue in office but was generally accompanied by grown-up diplomacy.

Trump appears to have changed the game and not in a good way.

machiavelli - 14 Oct 2017 09:21:04 (#18 of 129)

Ironically, it is the Iraq invasion that allowed Iran to increase its power and influence. The US position basically amounts to "Hey, how dare you meddle in our regional meddling?".

Like North Korea, it is presented as a morality play rather than the Realpolitik and clash of interests that it actually is.

The home audience has it's cartoon baddie. Win!

SinnerBoy - 14 Oct 2017 12:37:13 (#19 of 129)

upgoerfive -

The U.S. is never going to forgive them for overthrowing the Shah.

I don't think it's that, it's more to do with keeping the Embassy spies in custody and humiliating them, after the helicopter crash. And putting all the shredded documents together, proving that the USA was feeding Savak with death lists of people they didn't like.

Approximately 50,000 people tortured and murdered by them, with probably three times that number thrown into prison and tortured, but surviving.

Shadrack22 - 14 Oct 2017 13:01:21 (#20 of 129)

Ebadlun is there on holiday - will be interested to hear what he makes of it.

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