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Started by col2001 on Mar 8, 2022 5:46:03 PM
Ukraine - NVR / Pacifism

It is possible - and desirable - to resist military aggression without violence.

(I created a separate thread as this topic may not be to your taste. If so, feel free to ignore this thread.)

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col2001 - 08 Mar 2022 17:49:11 (#1 of 266)

I am struggling to see the benefits of fighting the Russian invasion militarily.

I think that Russia cannot, will not and could not hold Ukraine faced with the non-violent resistance of the people and the economic sanctions of the west.

If this is true, fighting causes unnecessary death and destruction.

thisonehasalittlehat - 08 Mar 2022 18:00:30 (#2 of 266)

The benefits are that a victorious Russia will move on to other objectives but a defeated Russia will be boxed for a generation.

tasselhoff - 08 Mar 2022 18:05:26 (#3 of 266)

If they hadn't defended, Russia would have got to Kyiv quickly and installed a puppet regime. And they'd have been emboldened for other actions.

And, frankly, who are we to judge people defending their country against an aggressor?

Macpaddy - 08 Mar 2022 18:09:44 (#4 of 266)

Russia may choose one unloved puffed up little island and wipe it from the face of the earth, a liitle décourager les autres.

thisonehasalittlehat - 08 Mar 2022 18:10:09 (#5 of 266)

I'm not keen on the idea of just wars as there is no justice in war. But this comes closer than most imo. Russia is a growing danger to the world.

However I am still conflicted.

Pinkgum - 08 Mar 2022 18:15:46 (#6 of 266)

I consider myself a pacifist, but when under attack I have always believed a proportionate response is acceptable.

Therefore I cannot condemn the actions of the Ukraine people, who can blame them for wanting to protect themselves and their country?

But yes such waste of lives of those fighting, horrors that will undoubtedly haunt those affected.

Post deleted by user
Macpaddy - 08 Mar 2022 18:29:38 (#8 of 266)

you sound like a Trump supporter at one of his rallies.

cozzer - 08 Mar 2022 18:33:09 (#9 of 266)

could not hold Ukraine faced with the non-violent resistance of the people

How?

indlovubill - 08 Mar 2022 18:38:10 (#10 of 266)

How?

Lying down in front of the tanks, like Bozo promised to do, lying down in front of the bulldozers at Heathrow. Though as far as I'm aware he's done plenty of lying but not in front of bulldozers.

col2001 - 08 Mar 2022 20:24:36 (#11 of 266)

The benefits are that a victorious Russia will move on to other objectives but a defeated Russia will be boxed for a generation.

Hat - I agree But why must the defeat be military? Why can't it be the failure of unsustainable puppet regime?

Same outcome, less death and destruction.

col2001 - 08 Mar 2022 20:27:16 (#12 of 266)

If they hadn't defended, Russia would have got to Kyiv quickly and installed a puppet regime.

Which would/will fail. Faster than the USSR, hopefully!

And, frankly, who are we to judge people defending their country against an aggressor?

ok - but people are also judging when they applaud current actions, aren't they?

col2001 - 08 Mar 2022 20:28:37 (#13 of 266)

How?

General strike etc etc

brooklyn - 08 Mar 2022 20:28:49 (#14 of 266)

it can take a very long time and a whole lot of casualties to rid oneself of even an unpopular imperial administration.

Mazzarin - 08 Mar 2022 20:30:19 (#15 of 266)

#12

But that presupposes the regime will only be mildly repressive.

What if it goes full Nazi/Communist and is willing to eradicate any and all opposition to the point of genocide?

col2001 - 08 Mar 2022 20:32:47 (#16 of 266)

Yes, it can, brook.

(And btw, I'm not myself ruling out fighting after occupation. Morally.)

(And of course it's for Ukraine to decide.)

But how many, compared to what's happening right now?

col2001 - 08 Mar 2022 20:34:49 (#17 of 266)

Mazz - it might. It might not. Tactics can adapt, accordingly.

But that's a possibility. I'm looking at the actuality of artillery shelling civilians right now. Plus 2m refugees.

brooklyn - 08 Mar 2022 20:36:10 (#18 of 266)

you can't tell. how many died in Vietnam (and Cambodia etc.)? Ireland took about 800 years; how many casualties there (tossing in the famine etc.)?

col2001 - 08 Mar 2022 20:37:35 (#19 of 266)

Well, the current talk is that Russia loses because of the West's response.

I don't see Russia successfully occupying Ukraine for a year.

Mazzarin - 08 Mar 2022 20:38:15 (#20 of 266)

#17

But surely the logic of not fighting to avoid death then leads to not even using non-violent resistance to avoid repression?

Also if you make it clear you will surrender to extreme aggression you in fact encourage it.

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