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Started by machiavelli on Nov 27, 2018 6:14:41 AM
"Let em drown!" Says Killary

Just kidding. But she did say

Europe has done its part, and must send a very clear message – ‘we are not going to be able to continue provide refuge and support’ –

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/22/hill
ary-clinton-europe-must-curb-immigration-stop-populists-trump-brexit


Should centrists ape rightists to get back into power and do cuddly centrist things again (except let forrins in)?

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AlanII - 27 Nov 2018 06:19:23 (#1 of 56)

No, the right just effortlessly move further and the centre becomes even more to the right.

machiavelli - 27 Nov 2018 06:31:40 (#2 of 56)

Nesrine Malik agrees.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov
/23/hillary-clinton-populism-europe-immigration

TRaney - 27 Nov 2018 08:13:57 (#3 of 56)

At least Malik links to some numerical analysis, although I’d have liked a bit more detail on this claim.

The underlying factors that have led to more than 1.8 million migrants coming to Europe since 2014 have not gone away; most observers believe it is only a matter of time before the number of arrivals picks up significantly once more.

There was an interesting snippet on one of the Simon Reeves programmers where he interviewed a couple of Africans in Barcelona. They hated it and wanted to go home, but what prevented them was losing face because everybody there thought they were living the life of Riley.

I assume the agencies working in the field have more nuanced info on numbers, motivation, and probabilities. But I haven’t come across them.

machiavelli - 27 Nov 2018 09:03:38 (#4 of 56)

They hated it and wanted to go home, but what prevented them was losing face because everybody there thought they were living the life of Riley.

I'm afraid that the Paved With Gold myth is still prevalent. Funny, we used to have the same illusion about dusty old Timbuctoo.

SheikYerbouti - 27 Nov 2018 09:28:10 (#5 of 56)

Is an open door immigration policy actually centrist? In the UK the only times we've been interested in positively welcoming immigration is when we've had a labour shortage, and not always even then. That's regardless of the party in power.

machiavelli - 27 Nov 2018 09:32:56 (#6 of 56)

Is an open door immigration policy actually centrist?

There's a world between open door and Fortress Europe, booters.

SheikYerbouti - 27 Nov 2018 09:37:53 (#7 of 56)

True, and the British are up one end at the moment. But I suggest that the nature and scale of the issue in southern Europe tends to push the policy response one way or another. When a hundred Africans try to make their way across the Med in a leaky boat you can't really obfuscate.

machiavelli - 27 Nov 2018 09:41:00 (#8 of 56)

What interests me is that Killary's message seems to be based on fear of the right, not political or moral principle.

Rendered - 27 Nov 2018 09:43:30 (#9 of 56)

Hillary not having moral principles? Getouttahere!

Agaliarept - 27 Nov 2018 09:44:15 (#10 of 56)

What interests me is that Killary's message seems to be based on fear of the right, not political or moral principle.

Maybe stopping the growth of the right in Europe is worth more than your morals.

We all know how it ended last time.

AlanII - 27 Nov 2018 09:45:38 (#11 of 56)

Maybe stopping the growth of the right in Europe is worth more than your morals.

Not sure it's possible to do that by conceding.

Agaliarept - 27 Nov 2018 09:47:10 (#12 of 56)

Not sure it's possible to do that by conceding.

Isn't the thing that the best way to move the middle ground is to be in control of it?

Maybe leaning right to let the Right wither then pulling the centre back to the left is the way.

SheikYerbouti - 27 Nov 2018 09:48:59 (#13 of 56)

That's the question isn't it? The proles want what the proles want, and if the proles want less Islams then in the long term they'll get them, or they'll make a lot of trouble trying. So you need to pursuade the proles that Islams are not the worst thing in the world, rather than berating them for being stupid, racist and probably northern.

AlanII - 27 Nov 2018 09:51:59 (#14 of 56)

Isn't the thing that the best way to move the middle ground is to be in control of it?

Well yes but, if you accept the far right's definition of the centre that comes with problems of its own.

Maybe leaning right to let the Right wither then pulling the centre back to the left is the way.

That is one way it could play out, there are others unfortunately.

machiavelli - 27 Nov 2018 09:52:26 (#15 of 56)

Ah, the South of the UK, that hotbed of religious tolerance.

Agaliarept - 27 Nov 2018 09:57:10 (#16 of 56)

Well yes but, if you accept the far right's definition of the centre that comes with problems of its own.

I'm sure it's not straight forward.

But we can all probably agree the Right in Europe is stronger than it should be. A lot of people are blaming immigration.

They probably aren't aware it's the management of the immigration that is causing the issue but until they are back listening to sane parties and not extreme snake oil sellers, then we may have to hold our noses and wade into the shit to get them back.

Lento_ - 27 Nov 2018 11:38:26 (#17 of 56)

Maybe leaning right to let the Right wither then pulling the centre back to the left is the way.



The trouble is that the right don't seem to whither away. The closest we came to this scenario was probably the Blair government - it deliberately moved to the centre/centre-right to pull in voters from the right wing, and at first this seemed to work. Labour won three elections, and the Tories seemed to be on the ropes.

The centre ground didn't get pulled back to the left though. Labour stayed at the centre rather than moving back to the left (presumably because they saw their position there as successful), and so all the political debate in the country became between the centre and the right, rather than between the left and the right. Once that became normalised, the "centre ground" had effectively shifted rightwards.

Lento_ - 27 Nov 2018 11:44:01 (#18 of 56)

Clinton's comments about immigration do have a reasonable point: immigration is something which concerns a lot of people, and at the moment it's the right rather than the left which seems to a lot of people to be offering solutions. If the left doesn't come up with solutions of their own then the right will continue to draw support.

However I don't think this means that the left needs to copy the right. The left probably needs to do one of two things: either come up with anti-immigration policies based on left wing arguments rather than right wing ones, or change the underlying concern by arguing that immigration isn't a bad thing after all.

Just copying right wing arguments is the worst option, because it accepts right wing assumptions and allows the right to set the agenda.

Agaliarept - 27 Nov 2018 11:51:54 (#19 of 56)

The centre ground didn't get pulled back to the left though. Labour stayed at the centre rather than moving back to the left (presumably because they saw their position there as successful), and so all the political debate in the country became between the centre and the right, rather than between the left and the right.

That's a fair point.

either come up with anti-immigration policies based on left wing arguments rather than right wing ones,

But aren't the 'right wing' ones actually sometimes left wing? It's the right who are claiming to care for the 'left behind' poor for example.

The people who control the left seem to have lost connection with the working class in this country.

Telling them what's good for them and refusing to listen to their concerns. Personally I think the right have co-opted some of the left's values concerning the working class in this country. That's not to say they believe them and wont sell the working class down the river at the first opportunity but the left seem to have gone deaf to the concerns of their main voting base.

allows the right to set the agenda.

But with a Right wing government, the right will set the agenda.

The left needs power before it can dictate the centre ground.

TrouserFreak - 27 Nov 2018 13:17:41 (#20 of 56)

I don't understand why a government has never explained that immigration is about keeping the country relevant, attracting the brightest and most industrious and helping progress.

Britain has never been about achieving racial uniformity and it's not an aim that any serious political party aspires to.

Promising to reduce immigration whilst increasing it just confuses people and makes them angry about being lied to.

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