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Started by DonkeyOT on Jan 6, 2016 3:32:18 PM
If You Could Go Back In Time and Prevent the Premature Deaths of Six Artiistes Whom Would You Save?

And as many as you like about whom you agonised, and those whom you believe had no more to contribute.

ChankNolen - 20 Apr 2021 09:54:31 (#161 of 246)

'But to stand up and shout that Nirvana weren't actually important, that Kurt couldn't write a smashing pop rock tune and that the band won't be remembered is just being contrary for the sake of it.'

That wasn't my argument. I've already said that Nevermind was, within the parameters of its genre, an important album.

My point was that Cobain would have run out of steam, because of his limitations as a musician and (I might add) because the alienated young man things wears thin pretty quickly.

When we think about musicians who have long careers (I mean, where they continue to have artistic validity, not just a long afterlife touring as an oldies act), its invariably because there is a capacity to transcend genre limitations and embrace all aspects of the human condition. I don't think Cobain, had he lived, would have had that staying power.

RosyLovelady - 20 Apr 2021 09:58:52 (#162 of 246)

There's no redemption in this world for alienated young men, it seems.

Agaliarept - 20 Apr 2021 10:01:30 (#163 of 246)

My point was that Cobain would have run out of steam, because of his limitations as a musician and (I might add) because the alienated young man things wears thin pretty quickly.

The mistake you've made here though is to assume that Nirvana would be Kurt's only artistic output.

What you would know if you were a fan (totally not your fault), is that Kurt was already looking beyond Nirvana when In Utero was released.

He was trying to organise collaborations and song writing partnerships (that for varying reasons didn't come to fruition). He saw Michael Stipe, someone who has had a long career, as his ideal and was hoping to work with him.

You can't discount any part of KC's life as every part of him obviously went toward his artistic ability, but had he not succumbed to his mental illness who knows where he would have gone.

So in effect, I can partly agree with you that Nirvana probably wouldn't have ended up like the Stones but that doesn't mean KC wouldn't have had a longer career.

Agaliarept - 20 Apr 2021 10:08:11 (#164 of 246)

It's so common to think that an artist you don't like isn't talented, if the art doesn't speak to you directly than it's easy to miss the point.

Most people recognise this and stop making these broad generalisations when they're teenagers though.

Like this: I am a metal fan primarily. I have no problem accepting that The Ed Sheerans seem to have a knack of writing a hit. I'd go so far as to say that little ginger twat is a talented hit writer.

ChankNolen - 20 Apr 2021 10:17:28 (#165 of 246)

'It's so common to think that an artist you don't like isn't talented, if the art doesn't speak to you directly than it's easy to miss the point'

That's assuming that there's no objective measure of artistic worth though. In terms of pure commodity value, that may be true: but I'm not going to apologise for thinking that someone who basically knows one chord shape is likely to produce a less interesting body of work than somebody who has a bit more musical nous.

Whether, as you suggest, Cobain would have eventually transcended the limitations of his extant body of work is obviously unknowable. But compare and contrast with that other member of the 27 club, Jimi Hendrix. We know that Jimi was already bored with the blues rock that made his name at the time he died, because he was already reaching out and experimenting in other genres, and with other musicians.

ChankNolen - 20 Apr 2021 10:20:58 (#166 of 246)

And it is not just about whether art 'speaks to you directly'. There is plenty of music that leaves me cold emotionally that I can nonetheless appreciate from a more dispassionate standpoint, in terms of scale of ambition, technical excellence, production techniques, or in terms of songwriting, application of well-worn musical techniques of emotional manipulation.

Agaliarept - 20 Apr 2021 10:25:58 (#167 of 246)

We know that Jimi was already bored with the blues rock that made his name at the time he died, because he was already reaching out and experimenting in other genres, and with other musicians.

We also know the same about Cobain but as I said, as you aren't a fan and clearly haven't done any wider reading about the band, so why would you know this?

in terms of scale of ambition, technical excellence, production techniques, or in terms of songwriting, application of well-worn musical techniques of emotional manipulation.

But see it's this sort of post that get's you accused of trolling. You could take each one of those points and directly attribute them to Nirvana.

Ok, maybe not technical excellence because the point of Nirvana was to face away from that as it had sucked the life out of rock for the previous 15-20 years.

But it's such a massive mistake to assume that because Cobain chose to play the way he did then he must've been technically a bad musician.

Seriously you're talking out of your arse on this. I'm not blaming you as it's clear you haven't read anything about the man but the idea that KC didn't know his instrument is laughable.

ChankNolen - 20 Apr 2021 10:51:31 (#168 of 246)

'But it's such a massive mistake to assume that because Cobain chose to play the way he did then he must've been technically a bad musician'

Occam's Razor suggests somebody using a capo and basically playing the same chord position on every song is not secretly running through the Giant Steps changes every night.

Agaliarept - 20 Apr 2021 10:53:51 (#169 of 246)

Occam's Razor suggests somebody using a capo and basically playing the same chord position on every song is not secretly running through the Giant Steps changes every night.

Like I said, if you don't read about this stuff you can't be blamed for not knowing it.

Repeating your error won't change the fact though.

I'm going to leave this now. If you're interested in challenging your own reckons, go have a read about the guy. You might surprise yourself.

ChankNolen - 20 Apr 2021 10:55:59 (#170 of 246)

Occam's Razor is not infallible though. According to Mick Wall's AC/DC book, Malcolm Young secretly played Wes Montgomery licks in his downtime.

Antimatter - 20 Apr 2021 11:03:20 (#171 of 246)

I prefer Nickelback.

LomaxFairchild - 20 Apr 2021 13:56:15 (#172 of 246)

To my ear, Nirvana were the Pixies/Husker Du with a pretty front man, so rock's musical canon would have been none the poorer had they never existed.

popstar7 - 20 Apr 2021 14:08:02 (#173 of 246)

I think you underestimate the importance/necessity of a hugely charismatic/pretty frontman.

LomaxFairchild - 20 Apr 2021 15:19:08 (#174 of 246)

Not at all - I totally get that they needed Kurt to make it big - the market for Bob Mould posters is, err, limited, after all. But musically Nirvana didn't tread new ground that other bands of the time hand't already covered.

Agaliarept - 20 Apr 2021 15:31:01 (#175 of 246)

But musically Nirvana didn't tread new ground that other bands of the time hand't already covered.

I don't think even Kurt would claim to have invented the sound. He was always very open about the influence The Pixies had on his sound.

He somehow managed to make his version into chart hits.

Maybe it was simply him as frontman because I always thought The Pixies wrote amazing pop tunes.

Sunfish - 21 Apr 2021 00:08:26 (#176 of 246)

Nirvana were absolutely brillliant, Foo Fighters are complacent cockrock. That is all.

jamalade - 21 Apr 2021 03:53:12 (#177 of 246)

The troll worked well.

RosyLovelady - 21 Apr 2021 09:00:15 (#178 of 246)

I've always been a devotee of 12-bar blues music with its three chords. By some standards expressed here, this must mean I'm a musical simpleton.

Tant pis.

ChankNolen - 21 Apr 2021 11:57:31 (#179 of 246)

That doesn't necessarily follow, but if you want to describe yourself as a simpleton I wouldn't drag myself over hot coals to stop you.

RosyLovelady - 21 Apr 2021 12:00:25 (#180 of 246)

I thought you said up-thread that even four chords per tune were far too few. Profuse apologies if that was some other simpleton.

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