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Started by Gingerly on Nov 6, 2018 9:25:16 AM
Fifth knife death in London in less than a week

A reduction in officer numbers of over 20,000 since 2010, a similarly huge reduction in police staff, the cumulative pressure to curb the use of stop and search over the past few years and categories of crime which didn’t exist until recently.

Yet somehow, the Government doesn’t seem to be sure how it has all come to this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46106544

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Gingerly - 06 Nov 2018 09:27:54 (#1 of 265)

It is somewhat simplistic, but given that 119 people have been stabbed to death in London this year alone, would it not be better to have robust stop-search in place, even if this meant that some people were, inevitably, wrongly targeted?

clammy - 06 Nov 2018 09:40:34 (#2 of 265)

Unfortunately a lot of the public do not trust the police, Gingerly, finding them to be racist and very R/Wing,How they regain the publics trust i must admit I don't know.

SheikYerbouti - 06 Nov 2018 09:45:02 (#3 of 265)

What is this 'robust stop and search' of which you speak?

If you mean a mob handed police presence in black areas, generally throwing their weight around, I suggest that no, it wouldn't.

Agaliarept - 06 Nov 2018 09:48:54 (#4 of 265)

I'm not sure stopping the stabbings is really something the police can do alone.

We need better support for poorer families, better opportunities for poorer young people, we need young people to feel they have a stake in society worth towing the line for.

People who are at the start of their lives and are already priced out of the game don't really have a lot of motivation to play by the rules.

Blaming the fact that a lot of young people see killing each other as the only way to progress themselves solely on the Police is oversimplifying things imo.

thisonehasalittlehat - 06 Nov 2018 09:49:34 (#5 of 265)

Maybe the kids from grange hill could do a song.

Rendered - 06 Nov 2018 09:50:51 (#6 of 265)

They're nearly as old as you now.

Lento_ - 06 Nov 2018 09:52:49 (#7 of 265)

We need better support for poorer families, better opportunities for poorer young people, we need young people to feel they have a stake in society worth towing the line for.



I agree, knife crime is a symptom of underlying problems rather than an independent issue which can be solved just by itself. The biggest of those underlying problems is poverty.

As a society we need to one day face up to the fact that we not only have significant problems with poverty despite being a rich country, but have a social and economic system which takes the lion's share of any new wealth generated and shares it out among people who are already wealthy. There's a big problem, and what we are currently doing does not address it.

Agaliarept - 06 Nov 2018 09:55:00 (#8 of 265)

There's a big problem, and what we are currently doing does not address it.

Sadly it's the wealth collectors who have the power. I don't see much changing without wholesale change across the board.

How do you remove those in power though and completely replace them?

Revolution? I can't see it happening.

Tenesmus - 06 Nov 2018 09:55:56 (#9 of 265)

So how will that help the kids who will stab, or be stabbed by someone, in the next few years or so?

HerrWalrus - 06 Nov 2018 09:56:38 (#10 of 265)

Kids in London probably have more life opportunities than other places in the country eg music connections, stage schools, sporting clubs, colleges, art schools etc etc etc

It's got nothing to do with "poverty" but a lot to do with peer pressure, gang culture, turf wars and a struggle to establish oneself in the neighbourhood pecking order.

Not sure there is any one answer.

Gotout - 06 Nov 2018 09:57:09 (#11 of 265)

Let's take a leaf from the American model and let everyone carry guns. That should cut down on stabbing....

TrouserFreak - 06 Nov 2018 09:57:23 (#12 of 265)

A different perspective is that as the population of London has grown and the police force shrunk, the proportion of knife killings has actually reduced.

Sadiq Khan went 180° in January and declared stop & search as ok again but he's given himself a nice 10 year breather to manage people's expectations.

I watch a music tv channel whilst I'm working and it is still ok for young urban musicians to rap about not talking to the police, describing violent feuds and making fun signs at the camera. None of that supports the idea that there is a willingness to tackle knife crime at the sharp end.

Gingerly - 06 Nov 2018 10:08:32 (#13 of 265)

What is this 'robust stop and search' of which you speak?

Effective, targeted removal of weapons from the streets.

If you mean a mob handed police presence in black areas, generally throwing their weight around, I suggest that no, it wouldn't.

I don’t.

Gingerly - 06 Nov 2018 10:11:17 (#14 of 265)

I agree, knife crime is a symptom of underlying problems rather than an independent issue which can be solved just by itself. The biggest of those underlying problems is poverty.

Definitely one for a multi-agency approach in the medium and long term. But the police are the only agency able to actually catch and prosecute offenders once the knives are on the streets and that can only be done with sufficient resources and political will to actually tackle the problem.

clammy - 06 Nov 2018 10:12:12 (#15 of 265)

#13, How will we tell when the police become less racist?

AlanII - 06 Nov 2018 10:14:28 (#16 of 265)

Effective, targeted removal of weapons from the streets.

Would that mean an effective amnesty on criminal non-weapons found in the same search?

FrankieTeardrop - 06 Nov 2018 10:16:22 (#17 of 265)

"I watch a music tv channel whilst I'm working and it is still ok for young urban musicians to rap about not talking to the police, describing violent feuds and making fun signs at the camera."

What is your solution to this problem? Censoring music and music videos?

Tenesmus - 06 Nov 2018 10:16:30 (#18 of 265)

In case you didn't know, in the past Gingerly has identified him/herself as a serving police officer, so has a perspective possibly unique on here.

Gingerly - 06 Nov 2018 10:18:48 (#19 of 265)

#13, How will we tell when the police become less racist?

I’m not sure how to answer your question. There will always be an element of racism in any organisation drawn from the general population, because society is generally somewhat racist. That’s not an excuse, racism is evidently wrong and we should seek to remove it from all organisations. That said, we have to deal with the situation as it is, not as we wish it had been for thirty years, so what do you propose? No stop and search unless and until no-one in the Met has been racist for a year?

I would suggest that the police get less racist every day/month/year, because there are strong movements to educate and ensure better representation. Also, it seems to me that society is becoming less racist, so that will inevitably be represented in the police.

RosyLovelady - 06 Nov 2018 10:18:59 (#20 of 265)

(I like "wealth collectors", Aga, and I would like to add it to my repertoire.)

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