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Started by mikeshadow on Feb 13, 2020 2:30:40 AM
75th anniversary of VE Day - extended pub hours

Pubs, clubs and bars, which are licensed to trade until 11pm, will be allowed to open for an additional two hours, on Friday 8 May and Saturday 9 May from 11am until 1am the following morning, to mark the anniversary.

The order, laid in Parliament today, will also apply to premises licensed to provide entertainment such as music, dances, plays and films.

Commemorations and community events will be held across the country to remember the heroism of British, Commonwealth and Allied armed forces personnel and the contribution of ordinary citizens to the war effort.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pub-hours-extended-to-mark-75th-anniversary-of-ve-day

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TheSwearingBear - 13 Feb 2020 03:13:50 (#1 of 104)

Is watching a play at 1am commemorating the war effort?

Catspyjamas17 - 13 Feb 2020 06:30:58 (#2 of 104)

I hate that they've randomly moved the May Day BH at short notice, a far more ancient celebration than VE Day. Also 75th? 75th rather spurious for a big celebration. 80th maybe.

browserbutton - 13 Feb 2020 06:54:39 (#3 of 104)

Sigh. I suppose these assorted 'Victory' celebrations will become increasingly important as part of the neo-populist narrative going forward.

'Plans to mark VJ Day are also under consideration, and further details will be provided in due course.'

https://tinyurl.com/rqongga

Ginmonkey - 13 Feb 2020 06:56:06 (#4 of 104)

Surely if we really cared we'd get an extra bank holiday not just a moved one.

indlovubill - 13 Feb 2020 06:56:57 (#5 of 104)

It's fuck-all to do with VE, the gammons will be celebrating victory over the EU

SaffronSunrise - 13 Feb 2020 07:06:57 (#6 of 104)

The EU trade negotiators will surely capitulate when they see how we mercilessly move Bank Holidays in order to facilitate our OAPS going out to get shitfaced into the small hours.

<throws plastic chair at wokey naysayer>

Catspyjamas17 - 13 Feb 2020 07:26:16 (#7 of 104)

#4 Exactly.

xDiggy - 13 Feb 2020 08:12:59 (#8 of 104)

If you recall they made a big deal of VE50, but I guess that was a meaningful celebration for a wartime generation largely still with us. Seems like an empty circus now.

DesEsseintes - 13 Feb 2020 08:49:14 (#9 of 104)

They don't like the connotations of May Day, I guess.

Tell 'em they're celebrating the USSR saving Britain's arse instead.

bossab2 - 13 Feb 2020 09:13:26 (#10 of 104)

It'll all be cancelled due to Chronovirus anyway.

FleurDuMal - 13 Feb 2020 09:15:58 (#11 of 104)

I hope it is. I can't think of anything more distasteful than drunken Gammons, wearing Engerlund football shirts, lurching out of Spoons bellowing 'Two World Wars and one World Cup'.

Cunts.

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 09:19:21 (#12 of 104)

The tribute time is between 11pm and 1am, so you have to raise as many glasses as possible in the two-hour time slot to the memory of the heroes who dropped bombs on Dresden and other such great deeds as these.

There will be awards for tribute givers who put the most money in Spoon's coffers.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 09:25:02 (#13 of 104)

You should probably direct your sneeryness at those who directed the bombing of Dresden rather than the aircrew who flew the missions guigal.

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 09:27:05 (#14 of 104)

direct your sneeryness at those who directed the bombing of Dresden rather than the aircrew who flew the missions

Ah. They were only following orders.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 09:29:37 (#15 of 104)

Oh very very dear.

SinnerBoy - 13 Feb 2020 09:29:45 (#16 of 104)

It was horrible and probably a war crime, but it was total war. Do you know who started total war?

The Germans.

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 09:44:34 (#17 of 104)

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 09:29:37 ( #15 of 16) Oh very very dear.

You gave that threadbare excuse. Are you raising a glass to Bomber Harris and Churchill or the other true heroes of the victory, then?

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 09:48:00 (#18 of 104)

SinnerBoy - 13 Feb 2020 09:29:45 ( #16 of 17)... The Germans.

Possibly not the actual victims of the Dresden raid.

HouseOfLametta - 13 Feb 2020 09:51:38 (#19 of 104)

What are we doing for VJ day?

Or VD day (when the navy came home).

SinnerBoy - 13 Feb 2020 09:52:52 (#20 of 104)

HouseOfLametta

What are we doing for VJ day?

Storming the Nissan factory, with Molotov cocktails, of course!

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 09:54:11 (#21 of 104)

You gave that threadbare excuse. Are you raising a glass to Bomber Harris and Churchill or the other true heroes of the victory, then?

If you read my post #13 giggles you would see I clearly said it was those who directed the Dresden raid who should be criticised rather than the the aircrew.

Dresden had no strategic value and was intended simply to crush German morale. All air raids however were likely to result in civilian death. Presumably you see all allied aircrew as culpable then.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 09:54:51 (#22 of 104)

Presumably you see all allied aircrew as culpable then.

And German aircrew.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 09:55:37 (#23 of 104)

Indeed pretty much everyone I guess.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 09:56:52 (#24 of 104)

Dresden had no strategic value and was intended simply to crush German morale.

Much like the earlier Baedeker raids, then.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 09:57:38 (#25 of 104)

Indeed.

carterbrandon - 13 Feb 2020 09:57:40 (#26 of 104)

Which makes it fine.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 10:02:08 (#27 of 104)

Yes, exactly.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 10:02:52 (#28 of 104)

Dresden had no strategic value

I don't think that's strictly true.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 10:03:51 (#29 of 104)

That's what I read.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 10:04:38 (#30 of 104)

Well I just read that it was an industrial and transportation hub.

carterbrandon - 13 Feb 2020 10:04:50 (#31 of 104)

#27: By that reasoning, we should have mimicked all the Nazi atrocities.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 10:05:03 (#32 of 104)

Ah maybe I misremember. Wiki says it was a rail and communication hub.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 10:05:24 (#33 of 104)

Obviously that still doesn't justify firebombing residential zones.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 10:05:43 (#34 of 104)

By that reasoning, we should have mimicked all the Nazi atrocities.

Yes, exactly that.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 10:06:45 (#35 of 104)

We've wandered into UK News cozzer. Logic works different here.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 10:07:25 (#36 of 104)

Ah maybe I misremember. Wiki says it was a rail and communication hub.

The BBC says it also had factories producing munitions and aircraft parts.

solomongursky - 13 Feb 2020 10:07:28 (#37 of 104)

I can't think of anything more distasteful than drunken Gammons, wearing Engerlund football shirts, lurching out of Spoons bellowing 'Two World Wars and one World Cup'.

It was my birthday.

hailesaladdie - 13 Feb 2020 10:07:47 (#38 of 104)

> It'll all be cancelled due to Chronovirus anyway.

I like this typo. We all suffer from Chronovirus, in a way. And it'll get all of us in the end.

indlovubill - 13 Feb 2020 10:08:33 (#39 of 104)

Dresden had no strategic value and was intended simply to crush German morale.



With the added bonus of destroying archives that might have raised questions about the legitimacy of the Saxe Coburgs.

InternationalVicar - 13 Feb 2020 10:12:21 (#40 of 104)

It's not a typo, i'm posting from 1994.

TheExcession - 13 Feb 2020 10:23:24 (#41 of 104)

There's a huge argument about the use of strategic bombing in WWII which esseentially runs:

- There were no precisions weapons in the modern sense. Dropping unguided munitions from thousands of feet up in the air is a very inaccurate way of trying to hit anything.

- There were no visual aids for use in poor visibility.

- Navigation aids developed during the war, but actual targetting relied on maps, photographs and the human eye. There were incidents of the wrong city being bombed entirely.

- The only way to reliably hit a target was to use area bombing.

- It was a useful tool to show the Soviets that the Allies were doing something to help them, before an invasion of Europe could be mounted.

- But there were those in the Allied command (Harris in particular) who became obsessed with the use of area bombing as a terror weapon or to wipe out the German workforce involved in the Wehrmacht's supply chains. Harris resisted pressure to target transport infrastructure and U-Boat pens, and also starved Coastal Command of resources as a result.

- The actual effect of area bombing has been much debated. German morale never broke as a result, and factories could often be quickly rebuilt. It has been argued that the dispersal of the Wehrmacht's supply chain to avoid bombing actually resulted in its own supply problems, and the diversion of huge resources into producing more and more AA guns, rather than artillery and anti-tank weaponry also helped the Allies in the ground war.

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 10:27:29 (#42 of 104)

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 09:54:11 ( #21 of 39) I clearly said it was those who directed the Dresden raid who should be criticised rather than the the aircrew

In encouraging us to celebrate war, the Boorish Johnson government, no doubt , includes all who participated and the heroes are Bomber Harris et al as well as those who carried out their orders.

But it's not a question of 'criticising' soldiers and airmen but protesting against the prostitution of their memory.

solomongursky - 13 Feb 2020 10:34:19 (#43 of 104)

President Frank-Walter Steinmeier will give a speech at Dresden's Palace of Culture, walking a fine line between remembering those killed in the Allied air raids on the eastern city and stressing Germany's responsibility for the war.

At 1630 GMT, he will join thousands of residents in forming a human chain of "peace and tolerance" as church bells ring out.

https://www.france24.com/en/20200213-germany-dresden-bombing-world-war-two-nazis-afd-commemoration?ref=tw

In order to downplay nazi crimes, the far-right are inflating the number of Dresden victims.

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 10:41:34 (#44 of 104)

#43

From your link.

Dresden bombing survivor Ursula Elsner, who was 14 when her mother dragged her to safety past burning buildings, told Spiegel she was tired of the anniversary being misused for political gain.

The 89-year-old wants the occasion to serve as a warning against war.

That is the position I am advocating.

solomongursky - 13 Feb 2020 11:08:12 (#45 of 104)

A poor chap found his burned family and dog and lost his mind so arranged them for a last family photo.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 11:11:00 (#46 of 104)

In encouraging us to celebrate war, the Boorish Johnson government, no doubt , includes all who participated and the heroes are Bomber Harris et al as well as those who carried out their orders.

Well yes, it's a meaningless exercise in cynical post Brexit jingoism. It is possible to believe this and not sneer at allied aircrew.

FrankieTeardrop - 13 Feb 2020 11:25:00 (#47 of 104)

With the added bonus of destroying archives that might have raised questions about the legitimacy of the Saxe Coburgs.


Don't need archives for that. The House of Windsor has been complicit in covering up the activities of its paedo-prince - thus demonstrating it isn't a fit and proper entity to be head of our state

solomongursky - 13 Feb 2020 11:26:01 (#48 of 104)

Its.

GyratingTrampoline - 13 Feb 2020 11:34:39 (#49 of 104)

It's a great conspiracy theory though. I hope there's a batshit website someone can link to that promotes the idea

FrankieTeardrop - 13 Feb 2020 11:59:09 (#50 of 104)

What is?

TheExcession - 13 Feb 2020 11:59:17 (#51 of 104)

I bet it's why they bumped off Diana!!!!!1111

FrankieTeardrop - 13 Feb 2020 11:59:45 (#52 of 104)

Here you go, here's an American news anchor talking about it happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjwf9F_v5cI

SinnerBoy - 13 Feb 2020 14:13:22 (#53 of 104)

GyratingTrampoline

It's a great conspiracy theory though. I hope there's a batshit website someone can link to that promotes the idea

Bevernbridge will be along soon, with the link.

AlanII - 13 Feb 2020 14:21:00 (#54 of 104)

From memory, Dresden was a massive communications hub but, that part was bombed very early on in the bombing. At that point, it would've been useful to shift attention to other ares, however, Harris was intent on recreating firestorms and terrorising the civilian population in what was basically revenge. I vaguely remember that even Churchill was not a great fan of this move.

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 14:41:21 (#55 of 104)

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 11:11:00 ( #46 of 54) Well yes, it's a meaningless exercise in cynical post Brexit jingoism. It is possible to believe this and not sneer at allied aircrew.

Even with your sanctimonious self-importance, it should be possible to recognise that deprecating the prostitution of the memory of the dead for nationalistic purposes, is not necessarily to be construed as 'sneering' at the dead.

Agaliarept - 13 Feb 2020 15:15:08 (#56 of 104)

Sorry for DM link but interview from Breakfast TV this morning with British POW Victor Gregg who was in Dresden during the bombing.

Pretty harrowing stuff.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7999149/Dresden-bombing-survivor-Victor-Gregg-100-Good-Morning-Britain-75th-anniversary.html

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 15:32:34 (#57 of 104)

Even with your sanctimonious self-importance

And with that, Alainis exploded.

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 15:59:06 (#58 of 104)

#57

Who's your exploding Alainis ?

quattrobhoy - 13 Feb 2020 16:02:58 (#59 of 104)

Vonnegut’s Personal Experience in Dresden was the inspiration for Slaughterhouse-Five

https://dresdenandvonnegut.wordpress.com/vonneguti
ndresden/

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 16:35:40 (#60 of 104)

Alanis Morisette old fruit. Of 'Isn't it Ironic' fame. Your referring to someone else as having 'sanctimonious self-importance' sadly resulted in an 'Isn't it ironic' overload with catastrophic results.

FrankieTeardrop - 13 Feb 2020 16:39:30 (#61 of 104)

reboots the Turing test

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 16:39:32 (#62 of 104)

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 16:35:40 ( #60 of 60) Alanis Morisette old fruit.

Not Alainis, then.

Your 'ironic overload' is responsible for the misleading spelling, is it?

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 16:46:06 (#63 of 104)

The Alanis Morissette lyrics don't deal with irony, in the Tadagee sense of 'accusing someone else of their own fault', if that is a permissible use of the word 'irony'.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 16:49:04 (#64 of 104)

Indeed the whole thing about that song, and the consequent meme, is that none of the things she lists are actually ironic. It's all utter nonsense really...

...hmmm...

...you're not a songwriter are you?

FrankieTeardrop - 13 Feb 2020 16:49:33 (#65 of 104)

we're going to need to reboot again, Tada

guigal - 13 Feb 2020 16:59:00 (#66 of 104)

#65

Ironic that nonsense-spewing Robot Frankie should accuse people of being robots.

FrankieTeardrop - 13 Feb 2020 17:00:08 (#67 of 104)

Ooh, tetchy AI!

SinnerBoy - 13 Feb 2020 18:28:44 (#68 of 104)

FrankieTeardrop

we're going to need to reboot again, Tada

Is that code for "deliver a good kicking to"?

nemo75 - 13 Feb 2020 19:01:57 (#69 of 104)

Always with the violence.

SinnerBoy - 13 Feb 2020 19:04:19 (#70 of 104)

Yeah, man!

nemo75 - 13 Feb 2020 19:12:34 (#71 of 104)

Go for it.

cozzer - 13 Feb 2020 20:32:50 (#72 of 104)

The actual effect of area bombing has been much debated. German morale never broke as a result

One wonders why anyone thought it would, given that they'd all just lived through the Blitz.

solomongursky - 13 Feb 2020 20:36:07 (#73 of 104)

I think the Blitz was 600 acres all told, Dresden was 1600 acres in one night. I think London had a firestorm, Coventry did and Hamburg. A survivor said the noise was like someone pressing every key on a massive church organ.

Tadagee - 13 Feb 2020 20:37:16 (#74 of 104)

One wonders why anyone thought it would, given that they'd all just lived through the Blitz.

Well the Blitz was at the start of the war at a time when the country was largely (if certainly not unanimously) behind the nation's leadership. The bombing in Germany was at a time when most Germans knew the war was lost, were sick to death of it and hated (although were terrified of) the Nazis.

nemo75 - 13 Feb 2020 20:52:12 (#75 of 104)

600 acres? London docks, Manchester, Liverpool, Coventry... really?

ChankNolen - 14 Feb 2020 09:38:20 (#76 of 104)

#41 pretty much nails it.

SinnerBoy - 14 Feb 2020 11:16:15 (#77 of 104)

nemo75

600 acres?

Seems very low to me, too. Sunderland suffered 43 air raids, the most of anywhere outside London.

DesEsseintes - 14 Feb 2020 12:25:36 (#78 of 104)

Geordie conclusion: Say what you want about that Mr Hitler, but he bombed the hell out of Sunderland...

InternationalVicar - 14 Feb 2020 13:20:35 (#79 of 104)

Sunderland suffered 43 air raids, the most of anywhere outside London.

Portsmouth was the most consistently bombed throughout the war, (rather than just the blitz), with 67 air raids.

solomongursky - 14 Feb 2020 13:28:31 (#80 of 104)

Plymouth was the other firestorm.

TheSwearingBear - 14 Feb 2020 13:55:55 (#81 of 104)

Hence brexit.

nemo75 - 14 Feb 2020 14:19:11 (#82 of 104)

Plymouth has definitely declined in the last 20 years. I guess reduction in military numbers.

HouseOfLametta - 14 Feb 2020 14:21:43 (#83 of 104)

Three of the places I've lived have claimed to be "most bombed" outside London. I think it's like "oldest pub" depends how you measure it.

My home town said it was something like "most bombed by head of population" it's a competitive business.

Tadagee - 14 Feb 2020 14:23:10 (#84 of 104)

I lived in Coventry for a while. That's got to be up there in the 'Bombed to Fuckery' awards.

guigal - 14 Feb 2020 14:23:21 (#85 of 104)

Hence brexit.

Wartime bombing would be a perverse reason for leaving the EU, which guarantees peace among members of the association. The drum to which Brexiters march beats to the sound of threats against our neighbours. Sink their fishing boats, capture Spanish ships off Gibraltar, shoot down their planes, smash the EU economy.

Heckler - 14 Feb 2020 14:24:42 (#86 of 104)

I guess reduction in military numbers.



Certainly a factor in the decline of a number of garrison towns.

SinnerBoy - 14 Feb 2020 14:26:15 (#87 of 104)

I knew Plymouth had it hard, but had thought that Sunderland had the worst of it. There are news stories on the subject.

Sunderland was the world's largest ship producer, back then. A lot of the town was flattened, but the Nazis did do much damage to the docks and shipyards, which were the actual targets.

HouseOfLametta - 14 Feb 2020 14:28:31 (#88 of 104)

Hull was pretty comprehensively destroyed, a lot of these places were on the way to or back from other places and just got unloaded on.

Hull's the only place I know with an authentic bombsite.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-44942592

solomongursky - 14 Feb 2020 15:34:48 (#89 of 104)

Leytonstone got bombed in both World Wars so Manchester isn't fit to clean Leytonstone's boots.

FGBFGB - 14 Feb 2020 15:50:14 (#90 of 104)

Clydebank suffered the greatest proportion of housing damaged and destroyed.

solomongursky - 14 Feb 2020 15:51:37 (#91 of 104)

I always thought it was Stepney. 30%.

HouseOfLametta - 14 Feb 2020 15:52:13 (#92 of 104)

As I said.

A competitive business.

DesEsseintes - 14 Feb 2020 16:02:49 (#93 of 104)

They even had a go at Withernsea for some reason. You can still see the bullet holes in the walls.

HouseOfLametta - 14 Feb 2020 16:05:22 (#94 of 104)

The lighthouse I imagine, a lot of bombing in the war was based on being able to see something. Anything.

solomongursky - 14 Feb 2020 16:13:45 (#95 of 104)

Glasgow suffered the highest number of fatalities (about 650), but in proportion to its population of about 50,000 the burgh of Clydebank suffered the worst. According to an official count in 1942 the Clydebank raids killed 528 people

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/fe
atures/the-clydebank-blitz-13-15-march-1941

DesEsseintes - 14 Feb 2020 16:13:51 (#96 of 104)

I suppose so. The lighthouse in the middle of the village. The pier would have already gone by then.

HouseOfLametta - 14 Feb 2020 16:17:06 (#97 of 104)

My little hometown had 200odd killed and several streets obliterated because it was easy to find on the railway and great North road.

Exeter was easy to locate and reasonably lightly defended and suffered awful damage including bombing the maternity hospital.

Not a patch on what happened in Germany or Poland, obv.

JohnIlly - 14 Feb 2020 16:32:45 (#98 of 104)

The lighthouse I imagine, a lot of bombing in the war was based on being able to see something. Anything.

Hence the success of the Starfish decoy sites in persuading the Germans to bomb empty moorland.

HouseOfLametta - 14 Feb 2020 16:35:21 (#99 of 104)

I remember reading about a 200 bomber raid on Bristol, reported as a huge success, the docks on fire and AA fire very limited. Several aircraft lost to fighters.

There was no report of any raids in the UK that night, and there weren't even sirens sounded in Bristol. I sometimes wonder where or what got it.

JohnIlly - 14 Feb 2020 17:47:02 (#100 of 104)

Probably this: http://www.discoveringblackdown.org.uk/starfish

I would have expected sirens to have been sounded, though, unless they bombed a decoy miles away.

InternationalVicar - 14 Feb 2020 19:23:55 (#101 of 104)

Didn't the Clydebank raid prevent the imminent shipyard strike? Nobody had a home to go to, and there was very evidently a war on, so they went back to work and stayed there.

ChankNolen - 14 Feb 2020 19:28:54 (#102 of 104)

Bristol and Coventry both good demonstrations of the ease with which you could set a mediaeval town centre on fire. See also (but more so) Hamburg, Darmstadt etc.

Berlin, by virtue of having wide boulevards and lots of green space, stubbornly refused to burn.

It's a shame Rgt doesn't post anymore, he was always worth arguing with on the efficacy of area bombing.

DesEsseintes - 14 Feb 2020 19:43:44 (#103 of 104)

Must go to Coventry again one day some day.

HouseOfLametta - 14 Feb 2020 20:00:54 (#104 of 104)

Years ago I had to go to Coventry for a three day course with a colleague.

He was a nice enough chap but a real Ledge Bants Rugger Bugger Bastard type, and We didn't have much in common.

I insisted we went to the cathedral, I'd always wanted to see it, and. I was fairly convinced my request would freak him out a bit, which was important. I take my entertainment where I can.

We went, and I have to say it's an impressive and remarkable building. I like a modern church, and as a statement of rebuilding and reconciliation it is powerful.

I wandered around looking at the glass and strange jaggedy embroidered things and whatever. My workmate looked bored and lost.

Eventually I saw him reading a plaque, and I heard a strange, strangled noise.

He'd completely gone, sobbing, great choked sobs, snot everywhere, I had to sit him down fast.

We spent the evening in the hotel bar, with him telling me all about his family, and boarding school and all the small tragedies and lonlinesses of his life, and, crucially, paying.

The next day he was back to normal, and I was sworn to secrecy.

Extraordinary.

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