No smilies, no avatars, no flashing gifs. Just discuss the issues of the day, from last night's telly via football to science or philosophy.
Started by annetjie on Mar 31, 2020 3:36:10 PM
Toby Young, Tory eugenicist - a bit of a dick?

People shouldn't be slagging off Toby Young. He is explaining, in numbers, the core of right-wing political thought: human life is assessed purely in terms of wealth-producing capacity. Ergo, the older, the disabled, the poor, the ill etc are Le Disposables. Clear?

chacqueschirac - 31 Mar 2020 17:06:51 (#1 of 108)


angelico - 31 Mar 2020 17:10:20 (#2 of 108)

One of the replies:

That's not what he's saying. He's not saying people exist purely in terms of wealth-producing capacity, but rather that there can legitimately be a trade off at some point between money spent and lives saved. I don't think anyone but a fanatic would disagree with that.


Ginmonkey - 31 Mar 2020 17:23:41 (#3 of 108)

To be clear Toby Young is a dick.

However governments and individuals make those kind of calculations and trade offs all the time.

annetjie - 31 Mar 2020 17:27:41 (#4 of 108)

And exercising my freedom of speech - what gives them the right to make those decisions.

They are superfluous to requirement.

angelico - 31 Mar 2020 17:30:19 (#5 of 108)

I find the characterisation of "fanatic" quite horrifying.

cozzer - 31 Mar 2020 17:33:12 (#6 of 108)

what gives them the right to make those decisions.

Uh, the fact that they are elected to make those decisions.

Ginmonkey - 31 Mar 2020 17:33:15 (#7 of 108)

#4 what governments? Democratic mandate.

I am in no way siding with Toby Young but you see that thinking in action all the time - funding of new drugs, road safety interventions, health and safety actions. It is not a new concept at all.

Ginmonkey - 31 Mar 2020 17:35:09 (#8 of 108)

For example air pollution results in millions of early and preventable deaths. Why not ban cars and flying? Because the cost is too great verses the lives it would save.

Verdigris - 31 Mar 2020 17:37:03 (#9 of 108)

I think you should be more worried if you are being valued in terms of bars of soap/fertilizer/Soylent Green etc.

cozzer - 31 Mar 2020 17:37:57 (#10 of 108)

I am in no way siding with Toby Young but you see that thinking in action all the time

In principle, the question he is asking is a good one: if we're saving x lives now at the expense of y people dying later, is it the right approach if y>x? But he's too stupid to make that argument compellingly, and his argument is based on a number of flawed assumptions.

Ginmonkey - 31 Mar 2020 17:40:14 (#11 of 108)


Tagyourit - 31 Mar 2020 17:42:05 (#12 of 108)

if we're saving x lives now at the expense of y people dying later, is it the right approach if y>x?

iirc Pratchett refered to it as "The dreadful algebra of necessity"

annetjie - 31 Mar 2020 17:46:29 (#13 of 108)

Why is it necessary? We know that rampant consumerism is bad on so many fronts and the so-called democratic mandate is so flawed it's laughable. It doesn't represent any but the rich, with a few crumbs to everyone else to keep them at the gate.

cozzer - 31 Mar 2020 17:48:25 (#14 of 108)

Why is it necessary?

<rolls eyes>

annetjie - 31 Mar 2020 17:49:28 (#15 of 108)

As you like.

<rolls eyes too>

cozzer - 31 Mar 2020 17:54:59 (#16 of 108)

It's a witless question. Of course it's necessary. Whatever political system is in place, whatever government is in place in that political system, the response to the pandemic comes down to that. It's not a question that is specific to the conservative government here right now. How you respond to the crisis initially will have repercussions further down the line, saving lives in the short term may result in more deaths later on, it's just something you have to weigh up in the response.

Tagyourit - 31 Mar 2020 17:55:49 (#17 of 108)

Why is it necessary?

Because resources (be they manpower, material or finance) are finite.

HouseOfLametta - 31 Mar 2020 17:56:22 (#18 of 108)

Their finity can go up as well as down.

TigerPaws - 31 Mar 2020 18:00:47 (#19 of 108)

Alas the limitations of communicating via twitter.

Gopal should know the ideologies of the right often favour conservative family relations with women serving men as wives and mothers, staying out of the labour market to labour in maternity wards and so on.

Low income workers are encouraged to uphold these values and let it not be forgotten the disabled can be in polsitions of power.

Homo economicus emerged fairly recently with the dominance of economics as a Theoretical subject?

mingmong - 31 Mar 2020 18:02:28 (#20 of 108)

Toby Young is a lot of a dick. More so than LOJ.

He is useful though in exposing the poodleish essence of the right-wing soul

These are people for whom it is all about kissing up and kicking down. The very same type of person, ironically enough, who would have risen to the top ranks of The Party in the former USSR, grassing up their liberal mates and laughing at the Chairman's jokes about torturing dissidents

Check Subscriptions
Home » UK News