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Started by col2001 on Jun 27, 2020 7:46:20 AM
'Democracy'

Does what we have really qualify?

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col2001 - 27 Jun 2020 07:47:15 (#1 of 132)

Prompted by reading this:

If Johnson and his allies get away with this national calamity, then the questions hovering over our democracy are troubling and grave. What does a government have to do to suffer adverse political consequences, if not violating its “first duty”, as Johnson once put it, “to protect the public in the most basic way” on an unprecedented scale in modern times? 

Boris Johnson wants Britain to go to the pub – and forget about the 65,700 dead

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun
/25/boris-johnson-britain-pub-dead-government-coronavirus

col2001 - 27 Jun 2020 07:49:10 (#2 of 132)

Some posters have said, essentially, we must suck it up: this is what you get if you live in a democracy.

I disagree. The 'democracy' we have doesn't deserve the term.

browserbutton - 27 Jun 2020 07:56:46 (#3 of 132)

Democracy is a numbers game -- quantity not quality. If democracy was a brand, it would not be a 'premium brand' -- sadly.

col2001 - 27 Jun 2020 08:02:51 (#4 of 132)

Yeah. I think our version fails on quantity and quality.

Quantity. Number of those who qualify to vote. Number who vote. Number of votes on stuff. Frequency of votes. Systems of counting.

Quality. Informed electorate. Representation. Voting systems. Subsidiarity. Lobbying. Corruption.

For a decent democracy, I say all these elements need to be successful. Any weak link and the system fails.

xDiggy - 27 Jun 2020 08:06:36 (#5 of 132)

If Boris Johnson has a trump card, a USP in politics, it is can-do, sunny optimism, an ability to dismiss and marginalise his critics as “doomsters” and “gloomsters”. It is our “patriotic duty” to visit the nation’s reopened pubs in a week and a half, he chirrups; “our long national hibernation” is coming to an end. His media outriders, too, hope that a cacophony of clinking beer glasses and flapping union jacks will drown out the dissenters

Maybe the problem is simply the electorate. They just gave this man an 80 seat majority in order to deliver an explicitly stupid goal.

col2001 - 27 Jun 2020 08:12:44 (#6 of 132)

Yeah, Diggy.

Maybe I'm unrealistic with 'Informed electorate'.

Modern societies are complex, psychological manipulation of voters is well-understood and there is lots of money available to do it.

SharkPatoo - 27 Jun 2020 08:22:22 (#7 of 132)

Boris is a total clown but there must be a midway point between 'Clown' and 'Prissy Cat-bum Mouth' which is what Labour have offered for the 15 years. Hopefully Starmer will be changing that but no sign of it yet.

browserbutton - 27 Jun 2020 08:26:36 (#8 of 132)

Maybe the problem is simply the electorate.

You mean the gullible gammon, with their easily-assuaged Pint and Spain Desperations? Surely it's unfair to blame the Gadarene swine -- it was after all the unclean spirits that drove them over the cliff.

FleurDuMal - 27 Jun 2020 08:48:40 (#9 of 132)

Maybe the problem is simply the electorate. They just gave this man an 80 seat majority in order to deliver an explicitly stupid goal.

The electorate are idiots. They demonstrate this at every opportunity.

nemo75 - 27 Jun 2020 08:59:50 (#10 of 132)

To flip the question on its head somewhat: Can we point to a country with a better functioning democracy? How is it different?

machiavelli - 27 Jun 2020 09:13:57 (#11 of 132)

Power in Britain is highly centralised. Ironically, it is the "party of small government" that is mostly responsible for it.

nemo75 - 27 Jun 2020 09:18:18 (#12 of 132)

Which functions or powers would you localise?

I’ve never found the argument compelling but I’d like to be persuaded.

FleurDuMal - 27 Jun 2020 09:18:40 (#13 of 132)

To flip the question on its head somewhat: Can we point to a country with a better functioning democracy? How is it different?

1. Norway

2. Iceland

3. Sweden

4. New Zealand

nemo75 - 27 Jun 2020 09:21:22 (#14 of 132)

How do the systems differ though.

elderberry - 27 Jun 2020 09:26:56 (#15 of 132)

Your first past the post electoral system does seem odd - the parliament you end up with is not representative of the votes cast.

guigal - 27 Jun 2020 09:28:47 (#16 of 132)

#14

You've been unable to find a list of countries ranked above the UK in the democracy stakes (by the Economist Intelligence Unit in 2019). It's been found for you. Over to you. Are you in such a hopeless state that you have to be spoonfed?

cozzer - 27 Jun 2020 09:29:29 (#17 of 132)

1. Norway 2. Iceland 3. Sweden 4. New Zealand

Are these countries with better functioning democracies or are these countries where you find the leadership more personally appealing?

nemo75 - 27 Jun 2020 09:30:23 (#18 of 132)

Fuck off giggles

elderberry - 27 Jun 2020 09:38:18 (#19 of 132)

the countries are (as guigal indicated) derived from this listhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

The things the UK scores less well no are Functioning of Government and Political participation. Good criteria or not? Fair judgment or not? Any index is only the product of its creators - here a London-based organisation.

nemo75 - 27 Jun 2020 09:40:10 (#20 of 132)

It’s a talk board. It seemed reasonable to discuss why Fleur had picked out those systems.

Apparently not.

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