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Started by WibbleAgain on Oct 8, 2020 2:26:53 PM
Unwarrated Wealth Orders

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54442979

Around £10m of property has been surrendered in a major victory against some of northern England's most dangerous criminals.

The apartments and homes were given up to the National Crime Agency by a Leeds businessman who investigators suspect of being a major money-launderer.

The NCA says Mansoor Mahmood Hussain acted for gangsters, including a murderer and drug trafficker.

.....

The highly unusual outcome of the investigation - including the settlement leaving the target with some property - comes after the future of the UWO powers was in doubt.

Of the four cases launched since the orders were created, two are still being fought through the courts while the NCA lost the third after the High Court ruled the individuals being targeted had no case to answer.

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WibbleAgain - 08 Oct 2020 14:28:42 (#1 of 35)

Oooops! Unexplained Wealth Orders.

Unwarranted Wealth would involve many more people...

thePiMan - 08 Oct 2020 15:28:51 (#2 of 35)

I'm in 2 minds. On the other thread I said they should not have accepted a deal and taken the lot if he couldn't prove where the money came from but I'm now also thinking if you can't prove he's obtained it illegally with a conviction, mind your own fucking business.

browserbutton - 08 Oct 2020 15:44:03 (#3 of 35)

Mansoor Mahmood Hussain acted for gangsters, including a murderer and drug trafficker.

Hmm. Will they be cross with him now, for handing over their moolah?

WibbleAgain - 08 Oct 2020 15:45:17 (#4 of 35)

He might have got permission from them to give up the properties.

thePiMan - 08 Oct 2020 15:47:11 (#5 of 35)

He hasn't handed over their Moolah, it was his, amassed from laundering for them.

browserbutton - 08 Oct 2020 16:02:14 (#6 of 35)

Ah, he's OK if it was all his then. Only the article says that the NCA believe he was laundering the gangster's profits through a property empire.

I was just thinking -- he's fucked either way, because the cops will keep a very beady eye from now on, and the gangsters might decide to put out a contract on his very being.

machiavelli - 08 Oct 2020 16:19:26 (#7 of 35)

I'm now also thinking if you can't prove he's obtained it illegally with a conviction, mind your own fucking business.

Yup. I'm not very keen on confiscation without due process.

SinnerBoy - 08 Oct 2020 16:23:25 (#8 of 35)

I'm going to speculate here.

They are likely to have given him an audit trail and offered him a deal, to cough up. That way, he didn't risk jail and they didn't risk months of comatose jurors coming to the conclusion that they didn't understand any of it and acquit him.

FredDee - 08 Oct 2020 16:23:37 (#9 of 35)

Seen the movie ?

Cate Blanchett as Veronica Guerin.

As a result of her death the Irish government passed laws about unexplained wealth which were copied elsewhere including the UK. Hence this thread.

tasselhoff - 08 Oct 2020 16:27:13 (#10 of 35)

What about all those hidden offshore trusts? How do the beneficiaries explain that when the aim is to mask who owns it?

WibbleAgain - 08 Oct 2020 16:32:10 (#11 of 35)

It's a bit difficult to put pressure on overseas owners who are BVI/Bahamian companies and make them coff up. Those are set up by legal and tax experts...

tasselhoff - 08 Oct 2020 16:34:08 (#12 of 35)

Sure. It could still be unaccountable wealth though, even without a paper trail (or especially due to the lack of transparency?).

WibbleAgain - 08 Oct 2020 16:39:57 (#13 of 35)

If you're gifted with wealth through a trust, surely that's proof of source of wealth?

Dementor - 08 Oct 2020 16:54:58 (#14 of 35)

Criminals shouldn’t prosper, though.

Is someone is worth significantly more than their apparent income, and there’s no record of investment, inheritance, lottery winnings or gifts declared to the Revenue, then ... where did the money come from?

Obviously people can’t account for literally everything they own, but surely there’s a point beyond which there’s an obligation to explain subject to penalty?

tasselhoff - 08 Oct 2020 17:21:08 (#15 of 35)

#13 not offshore trusts. They're all about avoiding inheritance taxes etc.

JennyRad - 08 Oct 2020 17:23:28 (#16 of 35)

Yup. I'm not very keen on confiscation without due process.



I'm not sure if it counts as "confiscation" if someone has agreed a deal?

JennyRad - 08 Oct 2020 17:24:32 (#17 of 35)

#13 not offshore trusts. They're all about avoiding inheritance taxes etc.



But there will be documentary evidence that the money has come from an offshore trust, and then there's a definition about whether that's taxable income or not.

tasselhoff - 08 Oct 2020 17:28:35 (#18 of 35)

The point is that it's a legal loophole for the right type of people to avoid scrutiny.

tasselhoff - 08 Oct 2020 17:29:22 (#19 of 35)

Money can be funnelled into trusts without oversight.

machiavelli - 08 Oct 2020 17:29:54 (#20 of 35)

I'm not sure if it counts as "confiscation" if someone has agreed a deal?

The clue is in the word "order".

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